Why does having the initiative matter?

[BobboFitos]

steal equity.

[john kane]

range is wider, someone calling the previous street typically has a more defined range.

[captainwacky]

if you wanted to better understand the dynamic of having the betting initiative all screwed up, play a session where you never reraise, just call out of the blinds with everything, and either lead or checkraise every time you would rather check/call or check/fold.

[dtan05]

dont you gain the initiatve by c/ring

[jkkkk]

[ QUOTE ]
it doesn't, really. the only reason why it *seems* to is because people tend to raise or reraise the strongest hands they can possibly have in their range (almost 100% of the time), so when they call (and "cede" the initiative) the probability of them having those hands is reduced significantly. in the scenario you outlined the tag player does not have any strong pairs or aces because he 3bets them almost 100% of the time. the lag player, however, still has all of those hands in his range. it makes a big diff when calculating equity vs. a range.

[/ QUOTE ]

winnar.

[john kane]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it doesn't, really. the only reason why it *seems* to is because people tend to raise or reraise the strongest hands they can possibly have in their range (almost 100% of the time), so when they call (and "cede" the initiative) the probability of them having those hands is reduced significantly. in the scenario you outlined the tag player does not have any strong pairs or aces because he 3bets them almost 100% of the time. the lag player, however, still has all of those hands in his range. it makes a big diff when calculating equity vs. a range.

[/ QUOTE ]

winnar.

[/ QUOTE ]


agreed. my problem is that clearly to utilise this you have to 3bet pf when players view you as only 3betting with your good range, and when they start realising you are not to then swing back again. my problem lies in that i used to 8 table autopilot 2-4nl and never had to consider this. i'm now thinking of having to drop down to 2, 3 or 4 tabling to focus on this. the problem though is whether anyone will actually notice this, or just look at my pokerhud stats.

[tcorbin16]

JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHN KAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[fishfather]

1. steal equity

2. pot manipulation

3. ability to see more cards

4. Unless you are hitting flops, it is very difficult to play against a good player raising (hu) a lot of pots and cbetting a good amount.

[sdfsdf]

[ QUOTE ]

I understand that position is very important. If you want you can change the example to: a laggy player raises first in in the small blind, a very tight player calls in the big blind. Why does it matter that the lag has the initiative?

[/ QUOTE ]
every time he bets and you call, he gains more information from you than you do from him. in the example you described, first when he raises from the SB he has a range of 25% or hands or something like that. when you call your range is narrowed to 20% of hands, and your range probably doesnt include TT-AA, AQ, or AK. lets say he bets on xxx flop and you call. his range hasn't changed at all, but yours has narrowed again, you're not calling his flop bet with 100% of your range.

[Trix]

Because the tight player will have a hard time repping anything considering he RRs his best hands.