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#11
07-27-2007, 11:24 AM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I usually fold PF as well but w/ the raise and 2 callers I didn't think it was bad. [/ QUOTE ] i'm not sure why you are questioning me, i have a lifetime roi at the 114's of 314.5% [/ QUOTE ] You won, yes! No more 60s. 
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#12
07-27-2007, 11:34 AM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
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If you're gonna call w/ AQ preflop against a raise, you might as well raise when you hit your best flop. [/ QUOTE ] This makes no sense. You are basically saying lets compound are one mistake by making another mistake. I don't think checking the turn here is that bad since if you get stack a donked you are usually behind, but still need to call. As played flop and river are fine.
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#14
07-27-2007, 11:45 AM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
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If you're gonna call preflop you have to be able to play TPTK very gingerly. Although I'm betting this turn. TPTK+NFD = too much equity. [/ QUOTE ] IMHO OP's line is perfectly fine vs. a tricky UTG raiser and flat-caller. I see about zero reason to bet the turn in position because a c/r is brutal, and what are they coming along with that you beat, and are there really that many cards that hurt you? Just take a card and go from there.
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#15
07-27-2007, 12:06 PM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
Yeah but the thing is if you hit your flush, you aren't getting much out of them on the river. What's the point of having TPTK with a draw to the nuts if you're just going to win a tiny pot?
It's very rare that UTG is going to lead out flop, then turn checks through to you, then you get CRed. Only hand that plays like that is a poorly played monster. And Ho Chi Minh should be better than that, which just leaves MP3 to worry about.
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#16
07-27-2007, 12:16 PM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Ho Chi Minh aggressively check raise the United States in vietnam?
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#18
07-27-2007, 01:00 PM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
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Yeah but the thing is if you hit your flush, you aren't getting much out of them on the river. What's the point of having TPTK with a draw to the nuts if you're just going to win a tiny pot? It's very rare that UTG is going to lead out flop, then turn checks through to you, then you get CRed. Only hand that plays like that is a poorly played monster. And Ho Chi Minh should be better than that, which just leaves MP3 to worry about. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, I think you're missing the point. If nobody has much of anything, you win the small pot on the turn instead of the river, so what's the point of betting? Knock out draws, I suppose, but really I'm more than happy to take that chance. There are plenty of scenarios where you get paid off on the river since it's a backdoor flush, and there are cards that help your opponents but help you more, and maybe somebody can't get away from a goofily-played AA or a set. Plus you can generally win a little something extra on the river, because you have under-represented your hand, so Villains will call a river bet with just about any made hand. Meanwhile it's a disaster if you get c/r on the turn. It might not be all that common, but why take the risk, when you have plenty of upside IMHO by seeing a card? All of this gets magnified b/c there are two Villains.
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#19
07-27-2007, 01:40 PM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
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If nobody has much of anything, you win the small pot on the turn instead of the river, so what's the point of betting? Knock out draws, I suppose, but really I'm more than happy to take that chance. [/ QUOTE ] As I see it, 15 cards are terrible for you on the river (non-club K, J, T, 9, 8). They either beat you or let someone bluff you off the pot. To me, that is too many cards to let people see the river for free. I bet around 400 on the turn expecting to win the pot most of the time. If I get called I check the river unless a club comes. If I get check-raised all-in, I probably fold, but I expect that to be very rare. The board is too coordinated for opponents to check through a hand they would check-raise all-in. Paul
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#20
07-27-2007, 01:53 PM
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Re: $60 - L2 AQs - it is too late to fold preflop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Yeah but the thing is if you hit your flush, you aren't getting much out of them on the river. What's the point of having TPTK with a draw to the nuts if you're just going to win a tiny pot? It's very rare that UTG is going to lead out flop, then turn checks through to you, then you get CRed. Only hand that plays like that is a poorly played monster. And Ho Chi Minh should be better than that, which just leaves MP3 to worry about. [/ QUOTE ] Dude, I think you're missing the point. If nobody has much of anything, you win the small pot on the turn instead of the river, so what's the point of betting? Knock out draws, I suppose, but really I'm more than happy to take that chance. There are plenty of scenarios where you get paid off on the river since it's a backdoor flush, and there are cards that help your opponents but help you more, and maybe somebody can't get away from a goofily-played AA or a set. Plus you can generally win a little something extra on the river, because you have under-represented your hand, so Villains will call a river bet with just about any made hand. Meanwhile it's a disaster if you get c/r on the turn. It might not be all that common, but why take the risk, when you have plenty of upside IMHO by seeing a card? All of this gets magnified b/c there are two Villains. [/ QUOTE ] w.r.t. the turn, that is what i was thinking in game. but in hindsight, i think the chances of the rider1234 (winning ug raiser) slowplaying an overpair or set in this spot is ZERO, the board has just become too darwy. i doubt the other player is slowplaying. i know the nut flush draw is nice but there are going to be a ton of non-club river cards that will be a disaster so betting the turn is probably best. the reason i did not raise the flop was because UG's bet really confused me. it sorta looked like he was throwing a small bet out so he could get raised and three bet allin to protect his AA or KK. i guess this is why it is usually best to fold AQ preflop. but with it being suited and 4 to the flop i was really playing more as a drawing hand with the opportunity to get some value out of tptk if the ug preflop raiser was not interested in the pot.
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