plugging a leak in my game

[rafiki]

Hi all,

I'm a pretty advanced limit poker player, with a good grasp of just about all the fundamentals of limit poker. I'd say I'm better then average in short handed games, but I still have one leak that I'm convinced needs plugging.

The context is almost always being out of position in a raised pot, and in a hand where I have raised a hand like KQ or KJs in UTG or UTG+1. The situation entails flopping top pair, and betting. Then the dreaded A turning, and getting raised on the turn. Let's consider the situation where I have almost no redraw, and I'm considering what to do with my second pair.

Of late, regardless of if it was a 27/20 decent guy, or some 50/4 donk, The player has the A. And although I've seen many players raise the turn (with nothing) to be sexy, I'm still giving away a lot of bets in this situation when I go into call down mode. However folding consistantly just seems weak, I'm sure that's not correct.

So what line do you take in a situation where you've got almost no redraw ? My current idea is maybe something like:

40 % of the time, bet/call
15% of the time, check/raise
20% of the time, check/fold
25% of the time, check/call

Sound about right ?

[djmeehan]

This is a very tricky situation because it is very read dependent. Is this a player who is going to bluff raise you? Is it someone who auto-bets when you check? does this player seem afraid of his shadow? Is this player a str8tforward rock? When you continue to bet on the turn here they don't know you don't have the ace. For the most part I would bet/fold this turn card. Sometimes I would check call it, calling again on river. Rarely would I check raise it (that's too expensive)and rarely would I check/fold it (don't be afraid of your shadow).

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very tricky situation because it is very read dependent. Is this a player who is going to bluff raise you? Is it someone who auto-bets when you check? does this player seem afraid of his shadow? Is this player a str8tforward rock? When you continue to bet on the turn here they don't know you don't have the ace. For the most part I would bet/fold this turn card. Sometimes I would check call it, calling again on river. Rarely would I check raise it (that's too expensive)and rarely would I check/fold it (don't be afraid of your shadow).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya I couldn't provide an exact hand with an exact read. But the range of players this has been applying to is as likely to be a solid player defending a blind with A7, as it would be some donk calling with A4 in a position he has no business being in.

That having been said, is the check raise really expensive as you said ? Assuming he'd only 3 bet two pair or better, then It's exactly the same price as bet/call. And if he's willing to 3bet, I'm willing to fold. So I wouldn't discount the check raise at times. Although I guess the check raise is only making worse hands fold, which we don't like. Bah ! I'll trial some methods and report back with results.

[jstill]

I never check fold or check raise in this spot, duno if thats a leak

[Apanage]

I would say that in an average game it is +Ev to fold your hand to a turn checkraise in this spot. You have to put yourself into your opponent shoes. If AK is on the board and you bet twice there are not many players that checkraises or raises semibluffs/bluffs on this turn. Many times in these kind of situations you have an A so folding is not making you look weak or anything because over half the time he gets his raise back in the face on turn or river.

[Apanage]

check/folding or check raising is not an option. Bet/fold against the majority of players and check/call the few ones that never calls this board but always interpret a check to be weakness.

[Rounder 24/7]

with the bet/fold what line would u take on the river?

[Apanage]

Check/call against almost any opponent except against calling stations then I bet/call or maybe bet/fold.

[rafiki]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that in an average game it is +Ev to fold your hand to a turn checkraise in this spot. You have to put yourself into your opponent shoes. If AK is on the board and you bet twice there are not many players that checkraises or raises semibluffs/bluffs on this turn. Many times in these kind of situations you have an A so folding is not making you look weak or anything because over half the time he gets his raise back in the face on turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

We're never getting check raised here, since we're first to act. I'm pretty comfortable playing this hand when I do have position.

[rafiki]

thinking about it now, I think the check/call isn't as bad as I thought, given that I'm opening the door to worse hands trying to bluff. I may use it more.