Check, or give pot odds?

RapidEvolution · #1 09-01-2007, 10:24 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP3 ($6.70)
CO ($12.65)
Hero ($9.15)
SB ($9.50)
BB ($11.40)
UTG ($5.90)
UTG+1 ($4.20)
MP1 ($1.85)
MP2 ($8.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $0.4, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, Hero raises to $1.8, 2 folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls $1.40.

Flop: ($4.25) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $3, CO calls $3.

Turn: ($10.25) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $4.35 (All-In), CO calls $4.35.

River: ($0) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $18.95

I understand, in retrospect that I should've bet more on the flop, but what to do on the turn if I suspect the flush draw? Check and fire on a blank, or shove to get money in while ahead, even though he's getting close to the odds he needs?

metsandfinsfan · #2 09-01-2007, 10:32 AM

your probably calling his river shove so might as well be the agressor and push turn

Zifadel · #3 09-01-2007, 11:19 AM

If he has the flush draw, he is calling most of the time no matter what you do at these stakes. Get your money in ahead, and you will get paid off here way more than you will get sucked out.

Small Fry · #4 09-01-2007, 04:51 PM

You could always check behind on flop and push non diamond turn.

PantsOnFire · #5 09-01-2007, 06:22 PM

I would say that every play you made was good and every call CO made was a mistake. If he won this hand, he did it against the odds and over the long run he will be a loser.

gedanken · #6 09-01-2007, 07:03 PM

Just because he'll have odds to call does not make your shove incorrect. Checking would have been much worse, if he's on a flush draw.

Think in terms of equity. Your equity in the hand after seeing the turn is about 80%. 80% of every dollar in the pot now, and 80% of every dollar going in on the turn will come back to you, on average. If opponent sticks with this hand, 20% will come back to him. If you bet $1 and he calls, he expects to win 20% of $11.25 (the pot plus the dollar you put in), so his call is +EV for him, but it's even more +EV for you, see? Betting more is even better, so long as he calls.

It's a common misconception that you don't want draws calling. You ALWAYS do*. If you're ahead, you make money off people chasing. You just make more if you charge them more. Giving pot odds is not ideal, but it is +EV.

This is especially clear when seen in contrast to your other line: check and shove a non[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river. That will NEVER get called (if he's on the diamond draw). A turn shove will ALWAYS get called and hold up 4/5 times.

*- ok, it's no-limit holdem, so there's always exceptions*. Someone with a strong enough combo draw might actually have more pot equity than you on the flop, so you lose money if there's betting.

gedanken · #7 09-01-2007, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It's a common misconception that you don't want draws calling. You ALWAYS do*.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, that's wrong. You always benefit from draws calling, but you might benefit more from them folding. In those cases, you "want" them to fold.

You generally want to bet an amount that leaves you winning more from a draw that calls, than one that folds -- that's not offering pot odds. If you do that, you want the call, mathmatically speaking.

RapidEvolution · #8 09-02-2007, 12:09 PM

FYI, Villain turned up J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I couldn't figure out his pre-flop or flop action, but I think if I try to, I'll break my brain. lol

choccypie · #9 09-02-2007, 12:23 PM

Villian is 110% donk [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] make note and move on, you wouldn't want to waste too much time analysing idiotic moves ^^

tarheeljks · #10 09-02-2007, 02:30 PM

i think your pf 3bet should be bigger b/c of the dead money. as played not betting the turn would be a mistake.