1/2 LO8 bottom two with nut low on river 3-way valuebet?

Lessu · #1 05-15-2007, 03:04 PM

Poker Stars
Limit Omaha hi/lo Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP2 with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12SB, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9BB, 6 players)
SB bets, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (15BB, 3 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks.

Do you think my hand is strong enough to valuebet the river or am I getting quartered(or worse) here.

no reads(other than hero is a donk who raises a lot preflop)

bbartlog · #2 05-15-2007, 03:32 PM

SB seems to have the nut low. You are almost certainly ahead of him for high.
As for UTG+1, would really depend on read. If he's a bad player who calls too much, chances are fair that he's got just a pair or even a 86xx OESD. If he's any good I'd give him credit for a middling two pair (Q2xx or the like) and check behind on the river.

Rush17 · #3 05-15-2007, 11:05 PM

I would almost always bet in this situation.

A lot of players have a misunderstanding about getting 1/4'd; if you do bet the river and wind up getting 1/4'd...you are NOT losing money on the bets that went in BEFORE the fourth+ players dropped out. So, if there were 4+ more players in the pot at any time, you will not lose(get 1/4'd) on any of those bets. You only get 1/'4(or whatever the amount may be 1/4, 1/8 etc.) when it's down to 3 or less...4 players and you break out even. Look at your hand, for example: you had 6 players before the flop, so even though you wound up getting 1/4'd at the end, you still made money on all of those bets because there were more than 4 players i *at that time*. Same with the flop AND the turn. Now, on the river, there were only 3 of you. So yes, for every bet that you put in from that point on, you will lose money. But how much? If the limit is $1-2 and the betting is capped ($8 per player which is $24) a 1/4 of that is $6, so you'd only be losing $2.

Also, if you bet the river, 2 good things might happen to you (and they can't happen if you wind up checking in last position): one, you might fold off a better high, and two, the sb may have counted on you to bet so he can CR looking to possibly take down part of the pot with a hand like top pair+2nd nut low.

The times that I do check this river is when I have a really good read and/or when the betting was much heavier at the turn(and flop)and when the board has either a straight or a flush available and I'm holding the nut low and 2 small pair.

This is a good board for your two pair, and yeah, someone could have a better two pair, but without a straight or a flush possible...I think there's great value for you to bet this.

Lessu · #4 05-16-2007, 08:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SB seems to have the nut low. You are almost certainly ahead of him for high.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was also my read and pretty obvious if you look at the turn action.

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of players have a misunderstanding about getting 1/4'd...

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't want to quote the whole paragraph but you are right. Even if I would get quartered here(which I thought would be the worst case scenario most likely).

If I checked the river and got quartered I would win 1/4BB's for the hand and breakeven if I bet and got called by both of them.

That said and summing up all the possibilities where I would get half, 3/4 or even a scoop makes it really worth betting this. It just felt 50/50 at the time with my limited experience with the game and 4-5 games going at that time

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you bet the river, 2 good things might happen to you (and they can't happen if you wind up checking in last position): one, you might fold off a better high, and two, the sb may have counted on you to bet so he can CR looking to possibly take down part of the pot with a hand like top pair+2nd nut low.

The times that I do check this river is when I have a really good read and/or when the betting was much heavier at the turn(and flop)and when the board has either a straight or a flush available and I'm holding the nut low and 2 small pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I jammed the pot whenever it was possible don't you think that I would just get called down with better two pairs here pretty often? It's so easy to make the players passive at these limits so I thought it was a likely possibility