Deep stacks w/KK...ugly turn card?

Sherman · #1 08-14-2007, 07:48 PM

I had play one previous hand with the villain. It went like this:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero (t5040)
SB (t3330)
BB (t6805)
UTG (t2770)
UTG+1 (t4165)
MP1 (t2590)
MP2 (t2765)
MP3 (t2700)
CO (t3200)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
6 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t325) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t200, BB calls t200.

Turn: (t725) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t725) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t650, Hero calls t650.

Final Pot: t2025

Villain showed KQ (obviously...I run great).

Anyhow, this is the hand in question here. Just a couple of hands later. $11 PS Nightly 20K Gtd. 3K starting stacks 15 minutes levels. I have been playing tight, but seen some decent cards so have been aggressive. What's the plan on this turn card?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Hero (t4040)
CO (t3205)
Button (t7630)
SB (t3070)
BB (t4165)
UTG (t2590)
UTG+1 (t2765)
MP1 (t2700)
MP2 (t3200)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
4 folds, Hero raises to t150, 1 fold, Button calls t150, 1 fold, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t475) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t450, Button calls t450, BB folds.

Turn: (t1375) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero...

kurtkatt · #2 08-14-2007, 08:08 PM

well we probably arent gonna check/fold? so check/raise or check/call and reevaluate right? he seems kinda passive(?) so i guess check/call and check fold a lot of rivers might be ok?

Stumpy · #3 08-15-2007, 12:36 AM

Heh, first thing I saw was the flop for the 1st hand and thought "seems like an OK flop for KK."

I don't like any of our options.

I don't see the point in Check/Shoving. All you'd do is fold worse pairs, weaker flush draws, and bluffs. (And get called by flushes.)
I don't think straights are a big part of his range, except 77, but they're not folding either.

I've gone back and forth, but I think bet 600 - 750 / fold to a raise. He thinks you're aggressive, and he seems passive.
He'll call with weaker flush draws, the straight, and maybe even with a made flush hoping you'll bet the river again.
If the [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hits the river, I'd bet small again.

plzleenowhammy · #4 08-15-2007, 12:40 AM

ck/fd

woohoo88 · #5 08-15-2007, 08:04 AM

ugh.. I don't like it, but I'm thinking c/f most bets (calling 1/2 or less i think). I just don't see too many hands in his range that we're ahead of at this point.

Bakes · #6 08-15-2007, 09:22 AM

i'd c/r almost always at these stakes, too many pps with spades in his range to fold, equity vs straight/2p, blahblah, check but not to fold.

kurtkatt · #7 08-15-2007, 09:49 AM

i dont understand this checkfold stuff. we got an overpair with 2nd nutFD, villains range för calling flop isnt at all just 87, 77 and flushes. from a passive(ok i know this read is a stretch) player its probably more like 108, 98, a8, random overcards/floats, 99-jj (maybe even qq), 87, 77 and flushes.

i guess bet/folding might be ok, but thats feel very much like a infobet where he probably folds everything we beat and calls or raises everything else, unless we make a small bet where we might be bluffed off our hand more often.

check/call can lead him to try and value/halfbluff weaker made hands, bluff outright if he is floating or check behind for control with the same hands and calling our lead on river. if he bluffs us twice with weaker made hands, well props to him. otherwise it feels quite fine to check/call, check/fld river?

Eratosthenes · #8 08-15-2007, 09:52 AM

I think button's preflop calling range is likely to be:

1) pairs, with medium pairs more likely. Usually reraise with big pairs, usually fold the little guys.

2) big suited cards.

3) a few big unsuited cards. These are the "just call AK in position" hands.

4) a few misc. suited connectors. JTs, T9s, etc. He folds a lot of these hands, so they are unlikely.

With this range, I think that the button will call the flop with more than just sets and flush draws (he should be raising sets, but who knows). Certainly hands like 99-QQ are still going to be hanging around, and maybe some AQo type hands that are putting you on two big cards.

If he has made a flush on the turn, you still have 7 outs to the 2nd nut flush, which might lose all your chips.

I hate checking because that is just yelling "Steal this pot.", unless he might think you have a flush and are going for the check raise.

The one good read we have on villian is that he is happy to slow play a big hand, so if we bet the turn and he calls we have not gained much information.

I want to get this hand to showdown and would call a modest turn bet if I checked. So I'm betting half the pot.

MJBuddy · #9 08-15-2007, 09:56 AM

Check/call. We still have a bunch of showdown value and when you check his range for betting widens so much that you are getting odds to call to the river (where he might check behind anyway.

helter skelter · #10 08-15-2007, 11:19 AM

I dont' think he played the last hand passively. He slowplayed it like most would, when they flop, turn, river the nuts in that situation. I think you have to just give him credit for being a good player until you know otherwise.

I wouldn't assume his call on the flop has to mean you are getting suctioned again and the turn card may be scary for him as well. I like the advice to bet but I don't think you need to bet that much, because you are not really that worried about him outdrawing you, rather you are worried that he might already have you beat, and also (as already stated) that checking might give him the idea that he can "steal the pot" and gives him control of the bet size. I think that is the main problem with checking and calling.

If you are raised, then I think it becomes an odds question, like x% of the time, I have no outs, x%, I have 9 outs and 10% of the time he is bluffing.