Explaining Color to a Blind Man..or math to prax

Praxising · #1 09-26-2007, 11:14 PM

I hope this thread does two things: helps me understand what the tournament summary means and explores the question of how often the winning player is going to showdown - or should.

First the math part:

I always thought the trny summarries about how many times you saw fourth street was like VPIP. I never really looked at them much until today when I tried to put my trny summaries into my new Poker Tracker.

Then I saw I won more hands than I entered. Wait...wow...I have no idea what any of this means....

OK - here's my sample trny:

234 hands
saw 4th st 40 times 17%
saw 5th st 24 times 10%
saw 6th st 16 times 7%
reached showdown 11 times 5%

Pots won at showdown 10 91%
Pots won w/out showdown 34

34 doesn't have a percent. 34 of what number? How many hands did I actually play? Does "seeing 4th street" mean every time they just folded around to my bring-in is included? Are the 5th street hands independent of the 4th street hands and not the ones left after I folded or won on 4th? What does all this mean?!!

(OK in my own defense I may be dumb as a box o' rocks but I did finish 4th or 5th. Or something.)

I did look at my cash games on PStars where I mostly play and my trnys and I seem to have a pretty steady rate of getting to showdown 5% of the time. Is this normal? It's been an issue before so I'd like to know where I am.

Alchemist · #2 09-26-2007, 11:22 PM

I can't answer the questions regarding what kind of figures you should aim for, but rest I think I can.

You won 34 pots without showdown, meaning everyone else folded. In this case this happened 34 times in 234 hands. They just didn't bother calculating the percentage.

40 times you were dealt a card on 4th.
24 times you were dealt a card on 5th.
16 times you were dealt a card on 6th.
11 times you showed your hand down.

The figures aren't independent of each other. The 16 times you made it to 6th is included in the 24 times you saw 5th. In other words, you folded on 5th 8 times.

Praxising · #3 09-26-2007, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't answer the questions regarding what kind of figures you should aim for, but rest I think I can.

You won 34 pots without showdown, meaning everyone else folded. In this case this happened 34 times in 234 hands. They just didn't bother calculating the percentage.

40 times you were dealt a card on 4th.
24 times you were dealt a card on 5th.
16 times you were dealt a card on 6th.
11 times you showed your hand down.

The figures aren't independent of each other. The 16 times you made it to 6th is included in the 24 times you saw 5th. In other words, you folded on 5th 8 times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks you. BUT ...if I was dealt a card 40 times on 4th, how did I end up winning 44 hands? 10 at showdown, 34 without showdown? Doesn't this mean I was only in 40 pots if that's how many cards I was dealt there? That would mean I won more pots than I entered.

I was pretty good that day, but not THAT good. I'm trying to figure out my VPIP - pots I played on purpose. And I haven't got a clue.

Wait! These percentages wouldn't include steals, then, would they? Pots I won with a raise on 3rd?

RustyBrooks · #4 09-26-2007, 11:36 PM

Some hands you won on 3rd, before being dealt a card on 4th.

Andy B · #5 09-26-2007, 11:37 PM

You can also win pots on third street.

RustyBrooks · #6 09-26-2007, 11:39 PM

And "vpip" generally refers to "how often did you put money into the pot, voluntarily, on 3rd st" (so does PFR which means "pre-fourth-raise"). So this number can actually be greater than the number of times you saw a card on 4th (if people fold to your completions a lot) or less (if they don't, but you get to see 4th for free as the BI a lot)

Whether or not whatever summary you're looking at really means VPIP of just how often you saw 4th, I don't know.

Praxising · #7 09-26-2007, 11:40 PM

LOL! I was writing while you two were enlightening me.

Alchemist · #8 09-26-2007, 11:41 PM

You won the remainder by being the BI and got no callers.

Praxising · #9 09-26-2007, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whether or not whatever summary you're looking at really means VPIP of just how often you saw 4th, I don't know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this means I've been mis-reading, and probably misrepresenting in posts across the Internet, a whole lot of stuff.

shoot

I gotta go do damage control...

RustyBrooks · #10 09-26-2007, 11:43 PM

I win way more hands on 3rd than any other street. Maybe as much as the other streets combined. According to FTPs stats, today I won 45 pots on 3rd, 23 on 4th, 14 on 5th, 8 on 6th, 3 on 7th and 33 at showdown. That's actually a good lesson in bluffing on 6th and 7th, hardly anyone folds.

I got to showdown 10% of the time today, but that's mostly because 2/3 of my hands were 3-handed or less and man those guys liked to call me down. Good times.

Edit: your WTSD*VPIP is near the percentage of time you show down so according to PT I show down 5-6% of the time.