NL25: JJ vs. preflop RR

Somekid · #1 01-03-2007, 03:29 PM

I just sat down at the table, so no reads. Is simply calling PF alright? Also, is my flop line a giant spew?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $30.40
UTG+1: $23.10
CO: $15
Hero: $24.40
SB: $4.75
BB: $31.30

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO (poster) checks, Hero raises to $1.25, SB folds, BB raises to $3, CO folds, Hero calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($6.35, 2 players)
BB bets $5.75, Hero raises all-in $21.4

I'm not sure if this is okay or not. I obviously can't fold, so the decision is between calling, raising, and shoving. I decided to push the flop since I could be ahead of a large part of the SB's range, and many possible turn cards are scary. For example, if a heart or overcard falls on the turn and my opponent fires again, i'm in a tough spot. That being said, my line might be way too aggressive.

CobraGoat · #2 01-03-2007, 03:33 PM

why cant you fold? just out of curiousity. i feel like on the turn its "obviously i cant call".

I think the turn is fold or shove and i lean more towards a shove.

davidyang · #3 01-03-2007, 03:33 PM

I think the preflop call is fine. However, on the flop the only hands that you beat are a semi-bluff or 88-TT. Everything else basically has you destroyed. Not sure what to do, but I think I would strongly consider just calling and see what happens on the turn.

4_2_it · #4 01-03-2007, 03:34 PM

What better hands does your line fold? The pot is re-raised is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is the only reasonable hand that you have to protect against.

I'd call and get it AI on any turn. A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn is not a bad card for you at all.

SCBielski · #5 01-03-2007, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What better hands does your line fold? The pot is re-raised is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is the only reasonable hand that you have to protect against.

I'd call and get it AI on any turn. A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn is not a bad card for you at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a favorite over JJ on this flop. You are only a favorite vs AKo and AQo, really. Both of these hands are probably in villains range, but so is JJ+. Since we have no read, let's give him some credit and say he isn't reraising you PF with less then JJ, so that rules out any upper middle pocket pairs. Assuming he doesn't have JJ, it's about 50%/50% if he has you beat. This is a tough spot and I think you really need to just go with your gut, holla.

evagaba · #6 01-03-2007, 04:41 PM

The only hands I see you beating are 99, TT and a big Ace. The almost pot size bet by villian does not seem like a cbet because of it's size. I think he has a valid hand. Probably QQ or KK. I would call and re-eval the turn.

Somekid · #7 01-03-2007, 04:42 PM

My thought was that I could sometimes get a hand like QQ to fold. But you're right, I'm not folding out many hands ahead of me.

However, my other reason for folding is in case a Q,K, or A falls on the turn. In this case, I'm surely sunk. So I figured the pot was already large, why not try to fold out a hand like AKo or AQo.

edit: to the poster who said the flop bet doesn't look like a cbet--My own (and many others') standard cbet is pot sized.

4_2_it · #8 01-03-2007, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What better hands does your line fold? The pot is re-raised is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is the only reasonable hand that you have to protect against.

I'd call and get it AI on any turn. A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] turn is not a bad card for you at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a favorite over JJ on this flop. You are only a favorite vs AKo and AQo, really. Both of these hands are probably in villains range, but so is JJ+. Since we have no read, let's give him some credit and say he isn't reraising you PF with less then JJ, so that rules out any upper middle pocket pairs. Assuming he doesn't have JJ, it's about 50%/50% if he has you beat. This is a tough spot and I think you really need to just go with your gut, holla.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem mixing it up with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] rigth here. That hand becomes a big dog on a non-heart turn. I think villain's range is wider than JJ+.

Hero open raised from the button. BB could easily interpret that raise as a steal and re-steal with much lesser holdings than JJ+.

Somekid · #9 01-03-2007, 05:05 PM

Hmm, I still dont think I understand why I should be calling the flop and trying to get all in on the turn. Here's how I was thinking about it:

My opponents range (as a conservative estimate) is 88+, AQs+, AKo. Also if he has a much wider range, odds are, the weaker hands are going to either fold to my flop all-in or c/f the turn. I also think it's unlikely that he has a strong made hand here.

So by pushing I fold out 88,99,TT, and sometimes QQ. KK and AA are going to call. I also fold out most broadway cards with the exception of NFDs with overcards. Combo draws will probably call my all-in, but even in cases where I'm not a favorite, the dead money makes pushing okay.

Now I have trouble seeing why calling the flop is better. I was thinking about the following scenarios:

If villain has AA or KK, he'll probably fire again on the turn in which case i'm getting all-in anyways. So this line doesn't really save me anything vs. a higher overpair.

If BB has overcards or a blank turn hits, he'll probably check fold (I doubt BB will call a turn bet here). Additionally if a heart or a Q,K, or A falls, I'll have trouble playing the turn.

So it seems to me that the only times calling the flop would be better is if it allows me to get away on the turn when I'm beaten. As played, I don't think this is the case. That is, since the BB is unlikely to call me on the turn with something I beat, and I'll probably have to fold to a second bet (or get all-in which would have the same effect as pushing on the flop), waiting until the turn to get all-in seems to only help my opponent. Calling the flop and hoping to get all-in on the turn would be good if there was a way i could get BB to call me on the turn when I'm ahead, which I don't think is ever going to happen.

That being said, I'm fairly new to NL so maybe this thinking is all wrong.

4_2_it · #10 01-03-2007, 05:31 PM

Calling the flop and pushing the turn maximizes value from worse hands. Better hands are taking a chunk of hero's stack here.

When we see what villain does on the turn then we can decide if we want to shove. An Ace or a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] might be great bluff cards. The turn is where hero has to decide how far he wants to take this hand.