Review: Winning in Tough Hold 'em Games by Stox/Zobags

[Michael Davis]

adanthar,

I don't think that "error" is minor. In fact, the river play by stox is very debatable and very close as to whether he should bet out on the river or not, whereas it is fairly obvious to check the river against a slightly overaggro opponent who will bluff the fourth diamond and potentially valuebet worse hands than AK. The entire description of the hand afterwards is problematic until the reader figures out that the board is not supposed to contain four diamonds. And that Stox is advocating a checkcall on this river is much, much more important (and controversial) than if the fourth diamond hits, thus it is possible that some dullard readers may not be thinking appropriately when analyzing this hand.

All things considered, this book is extremely good and extremely valuable. The one thing I would caution is to make sure much of the advice applies in your games. Specifically, if you are playing a lot of live midlimits, while much of this advice is going to be valuable playing against maybe 2-3 players at your table, many of your opponents will be considerably tighter than the opponents stox plays against. Especially consider your opponents preflop raising standards and how they relate to defending something like A3s against an UTG raise. Or pay attention to your opponents who don't steal from late position without a premium hand. Also, you should pay special attention to defending your blind when a bad player coldcalls in the small blind.

These situations are covered by the book, and the authors very clearly state their target audience. Just be very careful to apply the information in the right spots, and that may mean for those of you playing in soft live games, the types of blind defense situations described in the book only occur 5 or so times per session.

I don't think Stox would disagree with anything I wrote, and I think the book explains that, so perhaps I am an unnecessary Cassandra.

-Michael

[Shandrax]

Errata: Page 12 - open raise chart:

There is a blank (no data) in the jack-offsuit column 1 off the button. What about JTo?

[robispo]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a hard time understanding if WTHEG is applicable to low-limit shorthanded games ($3-6 and lower)? The book looks great from what I've read, but the title and text seems a bit ambiguous as far as whether or not any of this advice is useful in shorthanded games at the lower-limits online. The introductory pages offer a brief description of "Typical opponents by Limits", and the low limit games and their unique properties are briefly described, but none of the Stox hands or examples appear to pertain to low-limit games.

Is this book recommended or beneficial for online low-limit shorthanded players, or it is mainly geared toward mid-to-high limit players ($15-30 and up)?

If this has already been asked, I apologize in advance for not sifting through the previous 15+ pages. If Stox or Jeff read this, perhaps you could clarify for me--my head hurts.

[ledfoot]

I'd like to add my interest to robispo's. Namely, if I play mainly 8-16 live which is 9 handed tables, is this limit too low for aggressive BB and SB defense to have value? My initial assumption is that Stox's strategies are more applicable to the higher limits, particularly shorthanded. Thanks.

[Niediam]

The specific limits that you are playing is basically irrelevent. What you need to consider is if the stratigies are applicable against your various opponents.

But for the record I see those type of guys all over the place as low as .5/1 online but not too much at 3/6 live.

[uDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
The specific limits that you are playing is basically irrelevent. What you need to consider is if the stratigies are applicable against your various opponents.


[/ QUOTE ]

Though he gives specific advice about playing against tough opponents, it seems to me that the most important part of this book is that it shows how to adjust your game.

This is useful material for any player willing to do the work, but if you try to follow his specific advice without adjustment, you are likely to be making a mistake.

[Grisgra]

Question #1: p. 127-128 re blind defense when the SB calls -- Stox & Zobags explain why calling in the BB with K8o is a bad idea, then conclude the section by saying "On the other hand, you should call much more liberally with hands that have good implied odds such as pocket pairs and suited connectors . . . [t]his includes hands like 65s, JTo, or K5s."

Is that a typo, or are they saying that the suitedness is so wonderful that getting into the trouble we got into with K8o is worth it? Because there ain't much difference between having K8o and K5s in the situation he outlined -- if we call with one we're probably calling with the other, folding one in that situation, we're folding the other.

Second item -- just wanted to confirm the oddities re difference advice about preflop play. For instance, the discrepancy between p. 76 and p. 144 re 3-betting from the small blind:

p.76: 44+, A4s+, A7o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs
p.144: 22+, A6s+, A8o+, K9s+, KTo+, QJo, JTs

Obviously not a huge difference but I find it interesting that there is not a consistent difference re looseness -- the guideline on p.76 plays more weak aces but fewer of all other types of hands.

Third . . . damn, there were a lot of typos. You book publishin' types really need to run these by me ahead of time . . .

These minor quibbles aside, excellent book. I wish there had been more about how to play against lagtards, and I thought it was a little heavy re basic decisions on hot/cold equity -- but it's still got some good stuff.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Second item -- just wanted to confirm the oddities re difference advice about preflop play. For instance, the discrepancy between p. 76 and p. 144 re 3-betting from the small blind:

p.76: 44+, A4s+, A7o+, KTs+, KJo+, QJs
p.144: 22+, A6s+, A8o+, K9s+, KTo+, QJo, JTs


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a legitimate error, but we can correct this on our own. To clarify if we follow the 50% or greater equity rule VS an opponent who plays 40% of his hands in a steal attempt then we need to remove the following hands:

22 - 46% Equity - Too weak to remain on the list
33 - 47% Equity - Too weak to remain on the list
44 - 49% Equity - Too weak to remain on the list
55 - 51% Equity
A4s - 49% Equity - Too weak to remain on the list
A5s - 50% Equity
A6s - 50% Equity
A7o - 50% Equity
A8o - 52% Equity
K9s - 49.7% Equity
KTs - 52% Equity
KTo - 50% Equity
KJo - 52% Equity
QJo - 47% Equity - Too weak to remain on the list
QJs - 50% Equity
JTs - 46% Equity - Too weak to remain on the list

Keep in mind that in all these examples the margins are razor thin in favor, or against - a percentage point here or there is minor in the long run when you play well post flop.

I hope Stox can add to this discovery... its a minor revision, I think he would agree yet at the same time the equity edge lost when isolating a hand such as 44s is small in the big picture so don't sweat it - the book is accurate regardless of the recommended hand range you use but for safetys sake I'd use the chart on page 76.

[*TT*]

Stox - can you comment on the chart found on page 76? I am confused why some hands are in bold - is there a significance?

[olavfo]

Them's the sooted hands.