Play a hand against me and maximize your value

[ProfessorBen]

There are many turns you should be semibluff/free showdown raising with Ah or an 8 if villain is weak enough to fold AA/KK/AQ here in a large pot, which is what you are implying.

Metagame applies to a variety of other situations though and not this specfic one. Nice strawman counter to something I listed last in a list of several points which you conveniently ignored, though.

[KitCloudkicker]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the most obvious answer here: it depends!

My default thinking when I see a line of b/r/c (flop) and then b/r turn is that I've run into a monster hand. This is particularly true when I play a 2+2er or the like who is familiar with such "value maximization" lines. Thus, unless I have a reason to think you would be attempting a fsdr (ie unless you have a history or being tricky as such) I'm not going to be calling you down lightly. In fact if the turn is a complete blank, I can pretty safely put you on a set and muck a hand like KQ/AQ.

Thus, if you havent been doing a lot of light raising on the turn, taking the b/r/c, b/r line is not as effective as a simple flop cap. When a thinking opponent caps the flop, particularly on a board that has a fair number of draws, it is unlikely that I'm going to slow down until I get raised on a turn blank. This is particularly true in 6 max where light flop aggression is common even from solid players.

Now lets analyze the turn play...say you cap the flop. Should you raise any turn card? Again I think it depends on what the turn is. If the turn is a total blank rag, I think you might be better off waiting until the river. As a fellow 2+2er, you should aware that I love to value bet. As the saying goes, a b/f is usually better than a c/c. Thus, if the turn blanks, I'm going to be betting almost any river. Dont give me the opportunity to shut down or make a good fold until the last card, where I will probably have to pay off your confusing line.

On the other hand, if the turn card completes some sort of possible draw, you are probably better off raising then, for 2 reasons:

1) If I hold a high heart, i'll certainly have to call the turn raise, and then I probably have to call the river even UI.
2) I can easily see a possible fsdr with a hand that I can beat that contain a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I would probably call down unless a 4th [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] hits and I dont have one.

Thus, I really think you should consider taking a flop cap, turn call, river raise line in a lot of instances. Again, however, it depends on what card comes out on 4th street, and what you think my perception of your play is. The flop call, turn raise line also can work at the right times, like I said. Mix it up.

[*TT*]

Its important to note Kit cannot have the flush draw to go along with his hand, he holds an overpair or a bigger set always, there are more overpair combinations.

The call/raise turn line will induce a lot of folds when you dont want it, it will look like a monster.

The call raise river line looks good, the downside of this is that the call/raise river line will backfire 1 in 5 times when a flush card hits and your hand looks like a flush, but other times the hero's hand will look like a missed flush draw often enough which will induce a call where he might otherwise fold.

The alternative option is cap flop. Problem is this doesn't get you maximum value often enough because you can't hold a flush draw and a pair (unless you hold a hand like A5s and there is only one combination of course). By capping the flop your announcing KQ, 2 pair or a set the way you played your hand pre-flop.

best line - call. Villain will bet all streets 9x out of ten, pop the river and get paid off more often than not.

edit - dam you Kit, you posted your answer while I was typing mine. And your correct obviously.

[SNOWBALL]

4 bet the flop. I don't want a heart or a straight card to kill my action on the turn. Also, I'm gonna lol when you lead a blank, and I pop you again. The LOLing part is crucial to the plan imo

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]

He should be 3betting KQ here too,

[/ QUOTE ]

He should be 3 betting hands worse than that.

[SNOWBALL]

[ QUOTE ]
In raising the flop, it is unlikely that we have a flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

wait what?

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In raising the flop, it is unlikely that we have a flush draw

[/ QUOTE ]

wait what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I should have said unlikely but our range should be weighted against a flush draw. Maybe not all of us, but I don't raise most of my flush draws here. I will admit that lots of 2p2ers will do it though.

Question: If you're raising with KhTh here, are you 3 barreling?

[Fnord]

I'm capping Ah Xh, 5h Xh and Jh Th here, then taking a free turn card if offered.

[Lethe]

[ QUOTE ]
Its important to note Kit cannot have the flush draw to go along with his hand, he holds an overpair or a bigger set always, there are more overpair combinations.

[/ QUOTE ].

Er, am I missing something here? Why can't Kit have AKhh, or AJhh? Obviously this is much less likely than overpair / set, but he COULD have the draw, right?

[StrictlyStrategy]

[ QUOTE ]
Its important to note Kit cannot have the flush draw to go along with his hand, he holds an overpair or a bigger set always, there are more overpair combinations.

The call/raise turn line will induce a lot of folds when you dont want it, it will look like a monster.

The call raise river line looks good, the downside of this is that the call/raise river line will backfire 1 in 5 times when a flush card hits and your hand looks like a flush, but other times the hero's hand will look like a missed flush draw often enough which will induce a call where he might otherwise fold.

The alternative option is cap flop. Problem is this doesn't get you maximum value often enough because you can't hold a flush draw and a pair (unless you hold a hand like A5s and there is only one combination of course). By capping the flop your announcing KQ, 2 pair or a set the way you played your hand pre-flop.

best line - call. Villain will bet all streets 9x out of ten, pop the river and get paid off more often than not.

edit - dam you Kit, you posted your answer while I was typing mine. And your correct obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Nobody's folding better than KQ here.