abusing bad TAG players preflop [theory]

[Shizzle12345]

3betting CO or MP from btn is so effective. Everyone who isnt doing that much, should start doing that now. Dont use hand ranges, just do it with hands like K9s or 78o

[mendacity]

Consider abusing bad tags, with hands that you can flop equity, not garbage. This is why raising scs > calling pfr. It also helps open your three-bet range on the button.

[Shizzle12345]

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Consider abusing bad tags, with hands that you can flop equity, not garbage. This is why raising scs > calling pfr. It also helps open your three-bet range on the button.

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Abusing bad tags is not about flopping big hands. Often they call way too much 3bets OOP, and you can abuse that by cbetting alot and taking down bigger pots. Often they overadjust and start playing like a spewtard in rr pots and then you can more easily stack them (by tightening up ofc).

[Unknown Soldier]

i abuse light 3 bettors very easily. If the tags have 1/2 a brain you will get exploited if you start noticeably getting out of line. With that said, a lot don't


Also, in todays game you can get away with having a really tight 3b range and no-one will notice.

[Shizzle12345]

[ QUOTE ]
i abuse light 3 bettors very easily. If the tags have 1/2 a brain you will get exploited if you start noticeably getting out of line. With that said, a lot don't


Also, in todays game you can get away with having a really tight 3b range and no-one will notice.

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notes on certain tagfish, 'can 3bet light OOP and he will call light and CF loads of flop'. Usually i abuse those guys till they get sick of it and then tighten up.

[PBJaxx]

In a vacuum, I think 3betting ATC in position to LP TAG raises is +EV. That said, I don't think this should be your primary focus if you are trying to take more small/medium pots.

I HATE that I am gonna point out the obvious here, but you need to think about post-flop. I honestly think that if you are focusing on pre-flop to "take down more medium-sized pots," then you are completely missing the point.

Mad respect, Matrix, and I appreciate what you are doing. I hope this didn't come across wrong.

[ellington1641]

If I understand this correctly, you're not making the right comparison. You want to know if a c-bet is profitable GIVEN that your 3-bet has been called. In this case, you risk 18-20 bb to win the 25 bb pot, which obviously IS profitable given a 60% success rate. To consider the profitability of 3-betting, you want to take into account the profit that you get from a fold pre-flop. You're not just exploiting the fact that the flop will be missed 60% of the time, you're also exploiting the fact that some % of the time players in front of you are raising with hands they can't call a 3-bet with. So say that there's a p% chance of getting a fold pre-flop. Your EV = p(4bb)+(1-p)(.6(12bb)+.4(-30bb)). I'm assuming an 18bb c-bet, and the bb and sb given away to the rake. I'm also assuming that you NEVER flop the best hand. So surely your actual EV is higher than this, probably much higher since the times that you do have the best hand are likely to show a lot of profit. This is assuming you don't get silly when you flop middle pair with a seven kicker and try to bluff out AA or top set or something like that.
Anyway, the above EV is greater than zero as long as p>54.5%. So if you're getting folds from your 3-bets at that rate or greater, it's a good play (although maybe not the best one). If you are good at reading when to c-bet, and good at extracting maximum value out of times when you flop monsters, etc., then obviously you would require a lower p to make this play profitably.

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If I understand you correctly you are hoping to exploit the fact that in general a person will miss a flop ~60% of the time. i.e. they fold prefop or they miss and fold to your cbet.

Consider this, when they call preflop.
4BB open
~12BB 3bet
call
~25BB pot
check
c-bet ~18-20BB

you risk ~30BB to win ~12. If this play works ~60% of the time you will lose money. Obviously this is very fuzzy math and there are a tons of variables, but in general 3betting air with the plan to win without showdown is -EV.

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[chiTown22]

In no way do I disagree that 3betting is +EV. My post was an attempt to give a conceptually example of why 3betting pure air such as 84o can be –EV.

On a side note, I don't logically agree with evaluating a play at the moment. i.e. “In this case, you risk 18-20 bb to win the 25 bb pot”

Half of that pot is your money. Looking at the hand as a whole you are putting 30BB in the middle to gain 12 if successful. Where is my logic flawed?

[chiTown22]

EV = p(4bb)+(1-p)(.6(12bb)+.4(-30bb)). p>54.5% = EV

Just thinking about this more. What Percentage of the time are your 3bets called? In my experience its easiliy more than half, I would say its pushing 60%, which is a pure guess-timate. This leads me to believe in the current 6max games the perception of a light 3bet has made a tight 3betting range more profitable.

[vetiver]

I would consider using this move if you are a TAGish player yourself and you have not been 3betting villain with much frequency this session.

Forcing it with 84o off, though, strikes me as a -EV move long run. I think what tilts the scale is the possibility of blinds or villain coming over the top w/ 4bet and you not even seeing the flop. As previous poster mentioned, doing this with suited connectors or 1/2 gappers drastically increases EV.

I think the most interesting part of OP's move is thinking about how much showing down 84o (when you hit straight or trips on flop) will confuse your opponent a lot and make them play marginal hands much more aggressively against your future 3bets [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]