wtf am i doing part 2

[Guruman]

pots have been big and I'm running hot and playing well.

limper is tight and passive.
blind is a loose tag. 36/16ish and likes to show down when he makes a hand.
button threebettor is new and unknown.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Guruman is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button 3-bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, Guruman calls <font color="aaaaaa">(11.5:1)</font>.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (12.5SB, 4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman bets</font>, <font color="white">3 folds</font>

[nickg1532]

i probably check and peel if it's one bet back to me, then reevaluate on the turn.

[jstill]

calling and reevaluating if its one back seems good

i wouldnt mind making a play at the pot rite here with a bet tho, there is some chance an unknown may be the type to fold out a PP here with all the players behind him. Ur prior table image is of no relevance to this player but i think enough players fold 88-QQ often enough here to justify a bet, and this is alot of his range, the other part we fold out is unpaired Ace hands we dont mind in. If it works you have position the rest of the way with some outs if behind.

Plus the pot is large, the times button is stupid or overaggro and raises a worse hand to freecard or as a bluff and we lose hands like T9 or QJ is great and the times it checks through when we are ahead are certainly not great.

curious how the rest played out

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]
curious how the rest played out

[/ QUOTE ]

.<font color="white">..look closer..</font>.

[bbbushu]

guruman,

i like the play. our hand is obv strong enough to call one back and likely strong enough to call two (although that's fairly unlikely to occur here at the hand of the other two players) as long as we're closing the action. this obv assumes that the preflop three-bettor isn't a rock, etc. but i think considering the decent strength of our hand, our best option is to bet into the raiser and hope they either (a) go into passive mode (fold or call) and let us take control of the hand or (b) raise, knocking out the other two players for us and helping us protect our hand.

if BT is kinda LAGgy, i think this move is GREAT

bbbushu

[nickg1532]

i don't like the bet and prefer the line i mentioned above (c/c one bet, prob. c/f to two). but let me give a few reasons.

there are essentially 3 scenarios here.* 1) button has a better hand and will raise our flop bet; 2) button has a better hand that will call our flop bet (maybe QQ-88)**; or 3) button has a worse hand (e.g AQ,66) that will fold

1) c/c is much better than betting because: a) we obviously only put in 1 bet instead of 2 when we're drawing, b)we save a bet when someone c/r's c)although it's a big pot, we don't want him to blow away the field b/c there aren't any outs that we want cleared that would actually fold, and if we're drawing we'd rather have everyone stick around to increase our odds.

2) i think c/c is better here too: a)we save bet when someone c/r's. b)we keep the option of c/r'ing a turned 7 to trap the field (i think he'll be more likely to bet again with his weaker hands if we don't show any strength on the flop); c)there's a small chance he lets us see a free turn with a hand like 88 d)beyond that, it doesn't really matter whether we bet and they all call, or he bets and they all call.

c)all worse hands he can reasonably have here are dominated. if we chech we might get some value by hoping he c-bets rather than by just giving him a chance to fold. and again, we save a bet when someone is waiting to c/r with a good hand.

i will admit, however, that if he has a worse hand we often have the best hand, and we don't want it checked through. but his range is weighted more to better hands anyway



*for now i'll ignore the fact that this guy might raise a flop bet with 22 or do some other really weird stuff. if we had a read this could obviously change

**i should mention that i disagree with the guy above who mentioned folding better hands. i really don't see most better hands folding. but i could be wrong here

[bbbushu]

i think your choice to skip the part of villain's distribution that we're ahead of but that s/he will still either raise or call with is a pretty visible mistake.

i don't think we'll fold a better hand here very often but i don't think it's necessary to bet, hoping to get raised by BT.

it may occasionally happen but the reason for the bet is to take control of the hand or use BT's aggression to drive the other players out, possible buying us 3 more outs if we are still behind the pre-flop raiser (which isn't nearly as guaranteed as you seem to think - the board is pretty frickin' dry and there's no read that BT only three-bets with AK and pairs...)

obv the play is much better with a LAG read, as i stated initially.

if this player will fold any unpaired hand that s/he three-bets pre-flop, then we can donk all night long and bluff super-cheap on boards just like this one, anyhow.

bbbushu

edit: i'm not necessarily advocating this move against this player but i don't think it's that bad, either way, in a pot of decent size and i think it could definitely have high utility against certain opponents.

[Oink]

I just check and call if its 1 back to me. I think a preflop 3 bettor is c-betting here a lot and I wouldnt be too worried about handing out free turns.

So you won the hand right there - nice. But this is the only good thing a bet accomplishes IMO.
If button raises a better hand you are paying an additional bet to draw and the other villains are still close to getting odds to call a wide variety of straight draws, which are the only worse hands you really want them to fold.
If button has a worse hand he is either gonna fold or call and at best your bet performs equally good as letting him c-bet.

[nickg1532]

[ QUOTE ]
i think your choice to skip the part of villain's distribution that we're ahead of but that s/he will still either raise or call with is a pretty visible mistake.



[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldn't say i'm "skipping" it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] my point is just that i don't think we're beating much of his range, and that portion we are beating i wouldn't expect to raise very often. i will concede that alot of guys will call down with worse hands

of course this all depends on how you and i characterize an "unknown" as playing. our intuitions about what an unknown plays like might be a bit different, which of course affects things.

i am curious, though, about what outs you would like to buy here. i can't think of many hands that we really want to fold out if we're behind (although it is late and i've been studying all night, so it's all a blur). i'd rather have them call and pad my odds to draw.

[Kwaz]

I'm completely torn on this one. Results orientated thinking would have me believe that your choice of play was a stellar one. But what went through my head when I saw the hand was:

-The pot is huge.
-A donk theoretically offers less protection because whether or not they think about it, you're offering better odds to stay in because the other players no longer have to fear a c/r from you.
-The king hi flop makes a raise from a weaker button hand much less likely.

-Had Button only raised, I'd say there's a high enough risk of the flop getting checked through to warrant the bet. But seeing as he 3bet, I'm not sure that's really much of a concern.
-If you were folding if it came back two to you, the donk is probably a good play as it might protect against folding the best hand to a c/r from a weaker hand in the blind.
-You raised preflop so you can strongly represent the king.

My head hurts.