The Rake in Low Limit Hold 'em

[Rbower]

I play a lot of 3-6 and 4-8 low limit hold 'em in casinos. Every time I hear discussions about the rake in low limit hold 'em I hear different stories. Some authorities seem to say that "even Phil Ivey couldn't be a winning player at low limit hold 'em because of the rake". Other people claim that "it is possible to make $50,000 a year playing 3-6 limit hold 'em". How much money can a good solid player expect to make playing a 3-6 game in a brick and mortar casino with an average rake? Also what is the average amount that is raked out of pots at casinos in low limit?

[acesovercole]

Well...

I think you CAN be a winning player at small stakes limit. The rake does hurt quite a bit though. I don't think it's very likely you're going to find someone who can make 50k a year with brick and mortar play though. That's like, an online multi-table annual rate.

The average amount that is raked in a low limit game is like, $3-4. You figure $3 is the rake and another buck goes to a jackpot if there is one. That's on EVERY hand that sees a flop.

Hope this helps.

[llayner]

You should expect to make a BB/hour, even with the rake and dealer tips.

[KurtSF]

Around here its $3 drop, $1 BBJ, and $1 tip, so a total of $5 leaves that tables every hand. More if there are big tippers. So almost 1 BB gets taken out of every pot. That means to beat 3/6 at the "standard rate" you need to actually win much more than 1BB/hour as you're losing almost a BB/pot.

Given the poor quality of play usually shown in these games I believe this is entirely doable. I'd put the realistic maximum you can win at this level at probably $25,000 a year if you quit your job and devote your life to it. About $10,000 a year if not.

$0.02

[llayner]

Ok but at the very minimum, at 3/6 hold'em if make a realistic 1BB/hr (lets assume, overcalls, bad plays make up for the rake etc), you can pull about 13k working a 40 hour week; or, if you want to get craazy, lets say you work investment banker, 100 hours/week, you can pull a big 31k/year. You're better off getting a job a starbucks - at least that has benefits.

I had to be a nerd a crunch the numbers...

[SixForty]

I hate to go against the flow here, but I think that it should be relatively easy for a good player to beat 3/6 for more than 1 BB/hr. Even with the rake and tips.

[yanfu]

I kept good records while playing small stakes for over 2000 hours -- mostly 3/6. During my record keeping period, the rake increased from 4 to 5$, including jackpot drop. During the 4$ rake period I made 7.50 an hour. After the increase my win rate dropped to ~4.00/hour.

After sessions I rated my play and I'd estimate that if I had played very well all the time (which maybe Ivey could do), winnings would be about 10.00/hour w/ a 4$ rake.

*I tip 1$ per pot > 1.5 big bets.

[jetfish]

Another consideration, is changing how you play in games where the rake is close to 1BB. Some hands that would be slightly profitable in a vacuum, turn into losers. And some small losers you might normally play, turn into big losers.
3/6 is definitely beatable, but making some adjustments will allow you to win more.

[fishyak]

3 reasons why it would be difficult to break out above the 1BB/hr. rate:

1) Over long periods of time you will eventually catch a long cold streak of stinking cards. In no fold em hold em you can't win without some cards.

2) You will ocassionally sit down with other talented players.

3) You will ocassionally sit down with untalented players who get hot.

(I won't even talk about the non-Phil Ivey factor. By that I mean that you play "less than optimally" for a period of time.)

These three (four?)things bring should unfortunately, bring long term win rates back to earth.

I also have 1 year of 2/4 B&M data to back it up. The only real upside is jackpots. With lots of playing time, you should catch a "fair share" of that money. I average about 10/hrs. week, and had 5 table shares and 2 20%'s that I've paid for with my rakes. But at low stakes, the JP makes a big difference in net gains. Commerce has an "easy" JP, any Aces full. For the places with Aces full of T+, the JP will be much larger, but much less frequent. Without the JP, I think the 1BB rule remains close to right for a year's worth of play. If you can do much better than that, time to move up!

You should know better SixForty - I've seen you play 3/6! Hope all is well with you.

[acesovercole]

I think you can probably still work a full time job, but also play poker for 8 hours a day and accomplish more than $10,000 a year.