Ranges for 4 betting 150+BB deep? + Handling Floaters NLCASH

[People_Mover]

I had a terrible session yesterday and maybe it's because I'm not very good at 3 and 4 betting light against guys who 3 bets relentlessly. I played yesterday against someone who just completely owned me (and ran like jesus walking on water) We got semi-deep really quick and I struggle preflop with hands like this:

Problem 1:

2/4NL, stacks say $650.00 each

Hero raise to 12.00 with 99, Villian reraises to 45.00 (did this at least 25% of the time), should we be 4 betting to like 175.00-200.00 and calling a shove or just taking a flop? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Problem 2: 2/4NL - 600.00 stacks. How do you handle complete donks when you KNOW you have an advantage and are 3 betting hands well ahead of their range.

ex: DONK raises to 12.00 with any 2, reraise to 36.00 with A/J, flop 7 4 2, Hero bet 60.00, donk calls, turn 10, check check, river 9 and he shows you 6/9 off and scoops. It's tough to fire 2 barrels because honestly they could have any 2. It's just sickening how they float with nothing. Is it better to play small ball vs. these types of opponents? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[jay_shark]

Very good questions .

1)If he's 3-betting at least 25% of his hands , then you should be 4-betting/shoving with around half of that . So pocket 9's is a powerful hand against a player who's 3-betting that often . Play around with pokerstove and see for yourself . I'm definitely willing to 4-bet/shove with pocket 9's here and especially against a solid player .

2)Well if he's calling your pre-flop raises liberally and tends to float on a lot of flops , then you're better off putting in another turn bet .

You shouldn't play small-ball poker against passive players who call you with atc's . In fact , be willing to increase the size of your pre-flop raises to compound his mistakes if he calls .

[PureDiesel]

very informative post. ty

[Scansion]

1. Don't 4bet so big! Why quadruple his raise? I'd rather just call preflop and play accordingly post flop. Ex: float on something like K42, fold to a double barrel. If I'm playing this passively I don't like stacking on unders.

2. Be patient! Wait for a hand and go to valuetown. Don't try double barreling and all this crazy stuff when you know he's donking. Wait for a hand and he'll keep putting chips in.

[jakeduke]

PM,

In your first example, I'm calling with 99 almost all the time. And when I don't call, I'm certainly not 4betting to anywhere near 175. Maybe like 110? If you 4bet to 175 you're gonna get shoved on by all better hands (maybe not TT), and all worse hands fold fast. That's not what you want, especially when you have a good hand IP against a guy that will def stack off on lots of flops that are good for you. That said, if you think villain is loose/aggro enough to get AIPF with worse than 99, by all means do what you need to to get it in. I don't know many villains like that with 150bb though.

In the 2nd example, you have 3 options I guess. First is to double barrel, although villains that you describe are calling down with like 87 or 54 on that board probably, so I'm not sure that's the best plan. If they are that passive postflop, you could start slowing down more when you miss. The third option is to just not 3bet as much. If things aren't going your way and he's just NEVER folding to you postflop, you either have to make a hand or switch things up.

[Vinetou]

1. I prefer a 4 bet that commits us to calling a push, because there are not a lot of good flops to 99. 72% there will be at least one overcard and you won't hit a set so you won't like it.

2. Try not to c bet when you reraise preflop. I will sometimes do a checkraise bluff and if I have like KQ and it comes an like A27, I might checkraise bluff, or if he checks behind (he does it because he is suspicious of your check), I bet the turn. These guys don't believe your c bets, but they do believe your checks and checkraises, so I would take advantage of that. It is a very risky play, but more profitable than a c bet.