An objective analysis: Why doesn’t small ball work at micro stakes?

[Marshall28]

Big Poppa Smurf,

I think you overlooked the entire article, and only read the part that said "Another reason is I watch the CardRunners.com videos and I try to emulate what I see, yet have extremely minimal success" ...

did you even think to interpret what that meant? lol, you just decide to attack my play (which u know nothing of) and dismiss my conclusion.

maybe if you actually read it without making such hasty generalizations, you'll understand the point made.

[hoyasaxa]

The beauty of poker is that so many different styles of play can win. I have definately found some success playing LAG at the .10/.25 and .25/.50 levels. It works a lot better shorthanded, 6 max. I love raising in position with absolute junk and pushing the hand through. Even if I get called down sometimes and show the hand im firing bullets with, i use the table image to my advantage. People call me down with middle and bottom pair, pocket 8s with an a k 10 board.

What it all comes down to is your ability to minimize losses when youre caught and pick up a couple big pots getting paid off big time when you shouldnt. This is huge for me, since i always get tons of action after a while at the table. I flop a set against an opponent with AK and an ace comes out, his stack is mine.

[Archon_Wing]

[ QUOTE ]
basically at this point i think that abusing the button has gotten to be extremely overrated at micro stakes. reason being, players call too much w/ marginal hands from the blinds, and they call c-bets WAYYYY too often nowadays.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that raising with random crap from the button is rather spewy. However, the most profitable place is still gonna be the button, and if you're gonna play marginal hands you'd play it from there. I'd also agree that people call a lot of cbets as well so you should not cbet blindly.

You should remember if they are that passive, it's very possible that you can take your hand to showdown, and chances are the stuff you raise with is better than the crap they call with. Remember donkament logic= the blinds have random hands. Sometimes, if someone is so passive, I don't mind checking to the river and winning with King high or whatever.

[Dilznoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
I flop a set against an opponent with AK and an ace comes out, his stack is mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

His stack would be yours regardless of your table image unless you have the image of being a huge nit. You don't need to lose money getting caught bluffing in order to get paid off when you have a set against AK TPTK in a raised pot, which I guess kinda supports Marshall's point in this thread.

[Marshall28]

right on dilznoofus, thx for the support.

i def agree w/ what archon wing said as well. i never said anything like "dont raise the button" ... of course you should be looser from the button than from EP, my only point in regards to this was that if u r using the button merely for your fold equity on the flop, and place no value in the cards you are holding, you are going to be constantly running into a wall, cuz u r gonna bet, bet bet, and they arent going to fold. u end up w/ 7 high, and their busted straight draw beats u w/ J high...

the biggest advantage you have over weaker players is playing better cards in better position.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Marshall,

I read the entire OP. I also know where you are coming from, as this is always something I have struggled with when moving up levels, and I think you are taking unneccessary offense with my reply.

This is what you said:[ QUOTE ]
So basically this is what I’m advocating… First, relax; you don’t need to play a lot of pots to win a lot of money. Second, tighten up; stop calling pre-flop raises in marginal situations. Third, stop trying to put a move on a guy you know isn’t going to fold, because most of the time they won’t. And fourth, when you do wake up with a hand, bet the hell out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I said: [ QUOTE ]
The real lesson here is don't try to do advanced stuff until you are ready for it. If your handreading skills are not good enough to play more hands, then don't play more hands. Play tight and straightforward and you will make good monbies, since the fish are making their own mistakes. Playing lag when you are not ready for it means you start making huge mistakes yourself: this is the problem here.

[/ QUOTE ]

We are basically saying the same thing. You are attributing the problem to the games themselves and your opponents, saying that you shouldn't make moves or play lag because many times it doesn't work or is unnecessary to winning play. All I did was add the caveat that many times, lag play at these limits fails because the person implementing it doesn't know what they are doing.

We all lurk high stakes and watch videos of high limit players making sick plays, that part of my post wasn't meant to be an insult directed towards you or anyone else. All I was trying to say is that lag play and big moves can work, but you have to make sure you know why you're doing it and who you are doing it against. Otherwise you will just be spewing. This is true not only for micro-stakes but for poker in general.

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Just to clarify again, playing lag fails at these limits (and really at any limit) when you don't play it correctly. We are all micro players here and still have ridiculous amounts to learn about the game, and lots of experience to garner before we can be good at poker and prepared for higher limits. Many posters here (myself included) get caught up in the e-peen waving of "how high can I get my vpip?" or "look how many sick plays I can make" but they lack the experience or knowledge to consistently make those plays successfully.

So just play straightforward and pay attention and think about the game, and one day things will just click. You'll be in a spot and just naturally think to yourself "a bluff will work here" or "he can't call this raise" or "I'm ahead of his range and his line is whack, I can call this" or what have you. Once you have this experience and familiarity you can lag it up all you want and start making plays since you are good enough then to do it. But making statements like "you can't do this at unl" is flat out wrong and misleading advice.

[matrix]

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if you play tight, you play less hands against the fishies.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true. Playing more hands in good position against the fishiesis the numero uno reason to play 6maxafter all.

However the vast majority of players at uNL are fishies themselves - including everyone who posts on this forum (yes I am including myself here)

If we weren't we'd play and beat higher stakes. What makes us uNL posters better than the rest is we are actively trying to improve our play. Your average McFish is not.

As mentioned in the OP the reason good players do well with small ball is cos they read hands well and know the value of their own hands well as well. The majority of uNL players/posters do NOT, so for most of us LAG play is lighting money on fire like it or not.

uNL is where we lay the foundations for our poker games. And while you should try LAG and experiment with it from time to time (mostly so you understand much better how to play against it well) sticking to ABC TAG play is pretty much optimal down here.

Great post OP. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Marshall28]

Big Poppa Smurf,

The reason I took offense to what u first said was because you appeared to be singling myself out and claiming that these are all mere problems with my game, rather than referring to us collectively as uNL players that make these mistakes.

its chill, I'll let it go ... but to say that the advice is misleading, i think that's going a little too far... I think that you are right in the sense that if you are good enough, you can break any rule, but that doesnt necessarily make breaking all of the rules more optimal.

all im saying is, isnt the best player in the world more apt to play tight if the rest of the table is playing loose? ...

[Big Poppa Smurf]

Marshall,

yeah we're on the same page here, just approaching it from slightly different angles. Once again sorry for any (unintended) offense to anyone, I just know that the problems I have had with this issue are always the result of me biting off more than I could chew and getting in way over my head.