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Old 11-29-2007, 06:34 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

I made a post before about this, but this time I have some citations from the book <u>How to Beat Low-Limit 7-Card Stud Poker</u>
On the 3rd street chapter at the end. Question number one of the quiz asks
"You hold pocket jacks with a deuce on the board and are in the bring-in bet. Do you bring in for a dollar or the full ammount (supposing this is 2/4 stud)

The answer as you turn the page states

"Bet the full amount. You have a good starting hand. You want to force out other drawing hands early on so they won't give you trouble down the line."

I say this is fine if you look around the board and there is no more than 1 card higher than the jacks you have in the hole, but if there is more than 2 cards higher than those jacks is it really right to complete here? I may disagree with Kammen here.

Then again is he just contradicting himself since in the 3rd street talk about playing a high pair he uses a pocket 10's as an example with an ace as a door card, and he states "If you see two or more cards that are bigger than yours, just limp in. If it is raised from the bring-in of a doller to two dollars, go ahead and call. If it is re-raised, think carefully about calling. The only time you should call a re-raise in this situation is when you have alarge kicker and all of your cards are live."

So this means that If I bring in the full bet with jacks that If I'm reraised by that Q or K that I should drop the hand since my kicker is obviously a 2?

So it looks like I am right in bringing in the full bet if I look around and less than 2 cards are higher than my jacks, but If there are more than 2 I just limp hoping that it is not raised and reraised before it gets to me?
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  #2  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:10 PM
PoorLawyer PoorLawyer is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

I think there was just a thread on this. The consensus was to pretty much never bring in full (in a full ring game). Ray Zee agreed and a lot of players say to NEVER bring in full. Kammen is way outnumbered here. I haven't read his book, but it doesn't get rave reviews. He has posted here in the past so maybe he wants to explain his reasoning...

Edit: the OP there was you...is this a different question than before?
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2007, 08:14 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

Nope, I just reread the book to clarify his exact statement.
So does he contradict himself in someway since he says not to raise the bet with a premium pair if there are two higher cards yet to act, yet he just plainly states to bring in full with jacks concealed.
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  #4  
Old 11-30-2007, 02:32 AM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

It would have been more appropriate to post this in the existing thread.

I trashed the Kammen book in this thread a couple of years back. Skip it and get 7CS4AP.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:40 AM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

You state
"Kammen has you slow-play big rolled-up trips but play small rolled-up trips fast. I’ve seen similar advice elsewhere—West, and I think even 7CS4AP. I have two problems with this. One, I just don’t think there’s that much difference between 222 and AAA. I have lost with rolled-up trips many times, at least 20 or 30. I don’t think I’ve lost with rolled-up trips to a bigger set more than once or twice. It’s mostly been straights and flushes and a couple of full houses."

I disagree it is very easy to be out drawn to a better set here. I will take a set of jacks over a set of 5's anyday. Any moron holding a pair of nines can make a set and turn you into a dog, as apposed to having the solid set of kings or aces which are much harder for someone to crack. I like his explanation of playing small sets fast as you can be outdrawn many a time with a bigger pair.

You then state
"Kammen suggests that if someone is showing open Queens and you have pocket Jacks on fourth street, you can call if your hand is live and the other guy’s is dead. I think that this is a terrible game-plan. If someone disagrees with me, I’ll go into mind-numbing detail."

[b]I agree with Kammen here. He states you can go ahead and call if A) They have dead cards and B) You have live draws, with a good kicker. If you see that two queens are dead and you have your jacks as a total live draw as well as a better kicker than a queen, say JJK it is fine draw to a better hand depending on the pot size
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:53 AM
SCSTWG SCSTWG is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

Good Advice!

[quote Skip it and get 7CS4AP.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:07 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

The other book i got before I'm going to read 7CSFAP is the Winning 7-Card Stud: Transforming Home players into casino killers.
After that book I'll pick it up.
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  #8  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:33 PM
Poker CPA Poker CPA is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

Understand Zee's advice and you don't need a book, ANY BOOK.
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  #9  
Old 11-30-2007, 03:47 PM
dsaxton dsaxton is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

Given the fact that the guy with open queens will likely make a double bet, combined with the possibility that you may be drawing dead, combined with the fact that you are absolutely certain you have the worst hand, I can't understand calling unless somehow the pot is enormous.
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  #10  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:28 PM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

[ QUOTE ]
I think there was just a thread on this. The consensus was to pretty much never bring in full (in a full ring game). Ray Zee agreed and a lot of players say to NEVER bring in full. Kammen is way outnumbered here. I haven't read his book, but it doesn't get rave reviews. He has posted here in the past so maybe he wants to explain his reasoning...

Edit: the OP there was you...is this a different question than before?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let me interject a slightly different question than before then. Say you're at a full, loose, low-limit table with a high ante (1/5 or 1/4 of a SB) and the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] brings it in. You're next to act with: (J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img])3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. What's your play (dependent on how the rest of the board looks)?
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