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#12
11-22-2007, 07:02 AM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] What's wrong with raising, devin? [/ QUOTE ] Nothing if you don't mind bluffing this guy. But, I don't think he'll fold 88+. [/ QUOTE ] Hum actually it's pretty stupid to bluff a lag and I don't want to do it but aren't we supposed to be good very often here? Sure sometimes he's on an overpair but his bet is below half pot and looks very weak to me.. my instinct would tell me to just raise and take it down a lot right there, dunno prolly i underestimate how often we get played back at. 
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#13
11-22-2007, 07:07 AM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] What's wrong with raising, devin? [/ QUOTE ] Nothing if you don't mind bluffing this guy. But, I don't think he'll fold 88+. [/ QUOTE ] Hum actually it's pretty stupid to bluff a lag and I don't want to do it but aren't we supposed to be good very often here? Sure sometimes he's on an overpair but his bet is below half pot and looks very weak to me.. my instinct would tell me to just raise and take it down a lot right there, dunno prolly i underestimate how often we get played back at. [/ QUOTE ] I'm just saying, if we bet and he folds we had the best hand. If we bet and he calls, we very likely don't have the best hand or are fliping against a draw. If we bet and he raises we are folding. Also, the stat 34/20 or whatever it was does not tell us that he's iso raising a tight players EP limp real wide. You need a read for that, and OP didn't provide us with one. That being said, we would be betting to protect our hand, and there is value in that. But, I just don't think he goes away enough.
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#14
11-22-2007, 07:14 AM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
[ QUOTE ]
hypothetical situation, we some how got in this spot with 87hh. Would you c/r it? [/ QUOTE ] do you mean with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? he's a lagg, so'll say he'll rasie preflop with: 77+,A7s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo or even a wider range. against those hands 77 is an about 60:40 fav. 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] will be an 45:55 underdog. 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] c/f. because he is loose and aggressive, you should have to figure out what he has. if think a push would'nt be that wrong too here (with both hands), but it depends on his all-in-showdown-hands.
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#15
11-22-2007, 09:45 AM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
Raise preflop. I really think this is just about mandatory. Maybe I am just a raise monkey, but there is nothing I am limping in that spot. You can then C-bet the flop and have a strong idea of where you are. As played, with those stats for villain, I am thinking I am ahead and am calling and considering raising this flop.
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#16
11-22-2007, 05:22 PM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] hypothetical situation, we some how got in this spot with 87hh. Would you c/r it? [/ QUOTE ] do you mean with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? he's a lagg, so'll say he'll rasie preflop with: 77+,A7s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo or even a wider range. against those hands 77 is an about 60:40 fav. 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] will be an 45:55 underdog. 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] c/f. because he is loose and aggressive, you should have to figure out what he has. if think a push would'nt be that wrong too here (with both hands), but it depends on his all-in-showdown-hands. [/ QUOTE ] I meant 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] because it will play very similiar to 77 when you c/r unless you are A) calling a shove when you c/r or B) he just flats your pot committing c/r. I think him just calling is rare. So, the only time your actually equity comes into play is when you actually go to a showdown and he has some short of combo draw that you are flipping against. If he calls with an over pair, 87hh has very similiar equity with a backdoor straight and flush draws as 77 does with it's 2 outs. So, with stack sizes I think the c/r is a bad play unless you are willing to get it all in against a range that includes draws (usually 50/50) or over pairs (20/80), which isn't a good scenario. And I don't really like c/r off ~1/2 my stack to find out where I'm at. And I don't like raising off 1/2 stack just to fold when there is the possibility I'm flipping against overs and a fd. One more thing. He's lag yes, but I doubt he's raising nearly the range you are suggesting. So far he's raised 24% of hands. The range you are suggesting is 15%. Normally, even lags will be someone situationally aware. So, they probably aren't raising 24% of hands from any position. They are more likely to be opening very wide from LP and tigtening up as they move farther from the button. Given that, and the fact there is a tight early position limper and I think 15% is an overly optimistic range. So, just to summarize my thinking here. With a c/r in this spot with these stacks, you are simply hoping he folds. That's the only scenario you like. Therefore, it doesn't matter what your cards are. You're doing this solely on the basis you think his preflop range is wide enough, and he c-bet often enough that he will fold enough for this to show a profit. It really has nothing to do with your equity in the pot so 77 basically = 73o.
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#17
11-22-2007, 05:38 PM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
Thanks for the replies everyone, particularly Devin for your well reasoned thoughts.
I (rightly or wrongly) decided to c/c, this was the rest of the hand, no other way to play it after I decide to call the flop, right? Flop: (t475) 2  , 5 , 2 <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t200</font>, BB folds, Hero calls t200. Turn: (t875) 6 <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t200</font>, Hero calls t200. River: (t1275) A  <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets t200</font>, Hero calls t200.
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#19
11-22-2007, 08:04 PM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
you should ve raised on the turn i think although his bet is a little small. you re probably almost never ahead on the river. i think you re mostly ahead on the turn and he s drawing live so raise, not an easy one though.
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#20
11-22-2007, 08:26 PM
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Re: ($27) 77 against LAGG on undercard flop
[ QUOTE ]
you should ve raised on the turn i think although his bet is a little small. you re probably almost never ahead on the river. i think you re mostly ahead on the turn and he s drawing live so raise, not an easy one though. [/ QUOTE ] Donkbets from a player with that Agression factor should be unusual. When LAGS check or start donk betting IMHO u are behind a lot of the time. I call turn and river as well. Had villian made a ~2/3 pot bet on the turn what would peoples line be Call, re-raise or Fold ?
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