How should I play overpairs oop?

[Newman30]

How do I play overpairs out of position? What is the line to take, where you can still get some cash out of your overpairs (as you
are supposed to) but prevent yourself form stacking off against namely sets and two pairs but also straights and better hands?

Take a look at this hand. I didn’t know much about Villain at the time, but I had the feeling that he was a decent player. The reasonable way to play it would be cc turn, cf river – I didn’t, maybe because I didn’t know Villian very well, and I simple got to charge opponent for my overpairs. I should at least have folded the river, but on the other hand, you can’t fold every overpair just because the opponent shows aggression, and you also need to get some cash out of those overpiars, they should give you a lot of money in the long run, and the only way to get those money is by betting them. You can hear i don't quite know the right line her, so what is the line to take?

Maybe I'm just being naive because I have resently been playing NL100 and 200, where you could bet your overpairs on all 3 streets, and just get called, with profit. I very rarely see that happening anymore, in other words this line is not +EV anymore.

No IQ poker 3.00/6.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | <font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($423.07)
SB <font color="#C00000">Hero ($1761.75)</font>
BB ($594.00)
UTG ($600.00)
UTG+1 ($1269.08)
CO <font color="#C00000">CO ($696.00)</font>

Preflop: Hero is in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises to 24.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to 60.00, 1 fold, CO calls 39.00.

Flop (132.00) 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 86.00, CO calls 86.00.

Turn (304.00) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 160.00, CO calls 160.00.

River (624.00) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, CO moves all-in for 387.00, Hero calls 387.00

CO shows 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero shows K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

CO wins 1398.00 with Three of a kind, Three's

Since a straight is not possible on this flop, villain can almost only have a set, or slowplayed aces is an unlikely possibility. A bad player could have A9s. Ofcourse you see some calls with overcards here too, because I c-bet a lot, I don’t necessarily have anything in this situation. Anyway the most likely thing my opponent is having is a set. So another time I would cc turn cf river. If there had been a J or a Q on the table instead of the 9, I could have been betting the turn half pot, because some bad players would call here preflop with AQ (not that bad) and AJ.

Another similar hand:
Villain is loose passive. My bet on the turn is ofcourse a blunder, there is so many hands I am behind. Normally I should cc the turn, cf river, like the other hand. I am ahead of draws on the turn, and that is basically it. Villain could be betting a draw, so normally I can take one bet on the turn. That is against most villians anyway, against this particular rather passiv guy, the right line to take is probably cf turn.

No IQ poker 3.00/6.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | <font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button <font color="#C00000">Button ($869.62)</font>
SB Hero ($905.00)
BB ($600.00)
UTG ($237.85)
UTG+1 ($1316.25)
CO ($1056.64)

Preflop: Hero is in the SB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG raises to 24.00, 2 folds, Button calls 24.00, Hero raises to 75.00, 2 folds, Button calls 54.00.

Flop (186.00) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets 95.00, Button calls 95.00.

Turn (376.00) K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 180.00, Button calls 180.00.

River (736.00) 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button moves all-in for 516.62, 1 fold

Button shows 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Button wins 1252.62 with A fullhouse, Six's and Eight's

What do you think?

[Suwalski]

Your bets seem pretty weak, i usually raise 3-4x times their raise preflop and try to cbet 2/3-4/5 of the pot.
I think that once you flop an overpair with QQ+ in a 3bet pot youre usually stacking off unless the board is sick coordinated or villain is really tight.

[Gimli_]

Bet all-in in hand 1.

[Requin]

Shove or fold PF so you're never OOP ldo

[cbboy]

Your 3-bet sizing is absolutely atrocious in both hands.

[mustmuck]

3bet more in both hands. c/c river in hand 1 is terrible.

[chumofchance]

Not to sound like a jerk, but this is way too broad of a question to get any meaningful replies. But basically, by 3betting so small you give your opponents great odds to call with speculative hands. For example, in the first hand villain would have to be retarded to fold 33 there. He'll get to play the hand IP and he has a much better idea of what you hold than vice versa.

Aside from that, what kind of response are you looking for other than "learn to read hands better"?

[pp262]

3bet larger pre, shove river hand 1

[Newman30]

a few too many arrogant answers.

@cbboy
absolutely atrocious!
- why not say the 3-bets are a bad size and should be (what ever size you recommend) because I have to bet at least pot and I am oop, so preferably more - Something constructive, without arrogance.

@chumofchance
Aside from that, what kind of response are you looking for other than "learn to read hands better"?
- it is just completely arrogant. Yes, you sound a bit like a jerk just there - congratulations. But your explanation is good though.

I'm almost tired of asking questions in here, because I know that I will get arrogant answers. Still I do get answers and that is better than nothing. But it is a shame.

Thank you Suwalski for a constructive answer that is not arrogant.

[cbboy]

[ QUOTE ]
a few too many arrogant answers.

@cbboy
absolutely atrocious!
- why not say the 3-bets are a bad size and should be (what ever size you recommend) because I have to bet at least pot and I am oop, so preferably more - Something constructive, without arrogance.

@chumofchance
Aside from that, what kind of response are you looking for other than "learn to read hands better"?
- it is just completely arrogant. Yes, you sound a bit like a jerk just there - congratulations. But your explanation is good though.

I'm almost tired of asking questions in here, because I know that I will get arrogant answers. Still I do get answers and that is better than nothing. But it is a shame.

Thank you Suwalski for a constructive answer that is not arrogant.

[/ QUOTE ]

No arrogance there. But your right. I apologize. I should have said whats better. A good guideline to follow is make it 3x their open IP and 4x OOP.