The movement to remove shortstackers!!!

[1p0kerboy]

Link.

In summary, Daniel Negreanu has created a table that is 50bb min buy-in and 100bb max buy-in. Many are e-mailing Stars saying that they want these tables at all level to get rid of the ratholers. The thread I linked to is cross-posted across 5 different forums.

Thoughts?

[effang]

[ QUOTE ]
Link.

In summary, Daniel Negreanu has created a table that is 50bb min buy-in and 100bb max buy-in. Many are e-mailing Stars saying that they want these tables at all level to get rid of the ratholers. The thread I linked to is cross-posted across 5 different forums.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's very good. Short stacking online only works at the lower limits. At the higher limits, all it does is ruin play, since better players realize that if it gets AI PF, they are often getting the worst of it. Everytime I've SS 10-20, the entire table nits up, because the 2 on my right can't raise light, and the 2 on my left can't raise light either.

[1p0kerboy]

[ QUOTE ]
It's very good

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
all it does is ruin play

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell by your post whether you are pro-SS or anti-SSers.

FWIW, I don't really know if I'm for it or against it. But I do know short-stackers mostly cut into my bottom-line. Even when they aren't very good, they cause me and the other players to have to tighten up.

[mmctrab]

I think unless somebody can prove that shortstackers are bad for the game then I don't think the sites should do anything to prevent them from doing what they're doing. And no, I'm not a shortstacker myself.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's very good

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
all it does is ruin play

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell by your post whether you are pro-SS or anti-SSers.

FWIW, I don't really know if I'm for it or against it. But I do know short-stackers mostly cut into my bottom-line. Even when they aren't very good, they cause me and the other players to have to tighten up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've participated in ratholing. I don't know what the big deal is really. At night games tho, it seems pretty profitable since you get those folks calling with AT and so forth.

At any rate, the ratholers do one good thing anyway. They make my winrate wih 85o in LP or sb go up.

However, I agree with the movement. I'd love to see all the games have a minimum buy in of 50x and a max of 200x

[Northern]

I'm definatley not for short stacking, I hate it as much as the next guy. But that being said I dont think all tables should be set up to avoid SS. It's a strategy and if a player wants to play that way and 'stunt their growth' then who am I to disagree. I find it does change the pace and play of the game but so does other things such as suck outs, maniacs or nits. I think it's part of the game, its something that you have to deal with.

[twoblacknines]

They won't change all the tables. They will just have tables available to play without the shortstack leaches. And it would be quite funny to see a table with 9 shortstackers on it. Let the [censored] play against each other.

[diebitter]

I don't care. I haven't SS'ed in a while, but I make money out of bad shortstackers at a fair rate. I don't mind if they disappear though.

[Cry Me A River]

I'll admit I'm ambivalent here.


Yes, ratholers are annoying. However, the vast majority of shortstackers are horrible and not the kind of players I want to chase away. I think these players are much more likely to drop down in stakes than to buy-in with a bigger stack.

You also need to consider the meta-effects on a level. Right now Stars tables average maybe 2 shortstackers per table. Eliminating them would mean 22% less tables. Eliminating that many tables means more 12-tabling TAG regs per table and a lower fish:shark ratio. In effect, you'd be trading the shortstacks at your table for TAGs.

Is that what you really want to do?

I think there's a lot of selective memory going on here. You remember the handfull of good shortstackers and the times shortstackers put you in tough positions. But you forget all the times bad shortstackers hand you free money.

Here are some examples just from today...


In this hand, the initial raiser had a 3.4 PFR. So my 3-bet range is not exactly huge.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $99.00
BB: $20.00
UTG: $126.20
UTG+1: $31.60
Hero (MP1): $107.30
MP2: $18.50
CO: $37.50
BTN: $103.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $4.00</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, <font color="red">MP2 raises all-in to $18.50</font>, 5 folds, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: ($42.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Turn: ($42.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($42.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $42.50 ($2.10 Rake)

MP2 had 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and LOST (-$18.50)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Fours) and WON (+$21.90)



AT0 vs a raise OOP with a shortstack. And then there's flop...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $282.05
BB: $101.50
UTG: $104.30
UTG+1: $18.50
MP1: $72.80
MP2: $97.40
MP3: $30.00
CO: $60.00
Hero (BTN): $105.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
4 folds, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.00</font>, 2 folds, MP3 calls $5.00, CO folds

Flop: ($14.50) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">MP3 bets all-in for $24.00</font>, Hero calls $24.00

Turn: ($62.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($62.50) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $62.50 ($3 Rake)

MP3 had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Jacks and Tens) and LOST (-$30.00)
Hero had Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Jacks) and WON (+$29.50)



Calling a raise OOP with QJo. Tiny donk on flop. Chasing draws with a shortstack (and therefore having no implied odds). Bluffing with 1/3 pot bet.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $76.00
BB: $98.90
UTG: $27.00
UTG+1: $60.50
Hero (MP1): $134.60
MP2: $281.55
MP3: $100.00
CO: $102.80
BTN: $17.00

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG calls $1.00, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5.00</font>, 6 folds, UTG calls $4.00

Flop: ($11.50) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $2.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $11.00</font>, UTG calls $9.00

Turn: ($33.50) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($33.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets all-in for $11.00</font>, Hero calls $11.00

Pot Size: $55.50 ($2.65 Rake)

UTG had Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (high card Queen) and LOST (-$27.00)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a flush, King high) and WON (+$25.85)



Calling LP raises with SC's...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $86.75
BB: $93.95
UTG: $97.00
UTG+1: $24.55
MP1: $84.60
MP2: $88.55
Hero (CO): $215.65
BTN: $39.60

Preflop: Hero is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $1.00, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1.00, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.00</font>, BTN calls $6.00, 3 folds, MP2 calls $5.00

Flop: ($20.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
MP2 checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $15.00</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises all-in to $33.60</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls $18.60

Turn: ($87.70) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($87.70) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $87.70 ($3 Rake)

BTN had 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$39.60)
Hero had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (four of a kind, Jacks) and WON (+$45.10)




Or how about this bit of brilliance?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Hero (SB): $234.80
BB: $19.00
UTG: $88.20
UTG+1: $98.95
MP1: $21.05
MP2: $104.50
CO: $87.60
BTN: $23.15

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (8 Players)
6 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, BB calls $3.00

Flop: ($8) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $6.00</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $12.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $18.00</font>, BB calls all-in for $3.00
Uncalled bet of $3.00 returned to Hero

Turn: ($38) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($38) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $38.00 ($1.85 Rake)

BB had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Jacks and Fives) and WON (+$17.15)
Hero had K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a pair of Fives) and LOST (-$19.00)


More free money...

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $22.15
BB: $66.10
UTG: $111.70
UTG+1: $39.75
MP1: $106.00
MP2: $9.65
MP3: $37.50
Hero (CO): $121.90
BTN: $142.35

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (9 Players)
3 folds, MP2 calls $1.00, MP3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $5.00</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">MP2 raises all-in to $9.65</font>, Hero calls $4.65

Flop: ($20.80) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Turn: ($20.80) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

River: ($20.80) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 All-In)

Pot Size: $20.80 ($1 Rake)

MP2 had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Queens) and LOST (-$9.65)
Hero had Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Jacks) and WON (+$10.15)


Remind me again why I want these guys to leave?

[Mike Kelley]

I liked them more when I played nittier. Perhaps I just need to be more observant of the table when I'm thinking about raising.