50NL- JJ OOP Street By Street

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking here is all wrong. Of course you are ahead more often than not here, but how often are you ahead if he calls your push? "Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]

By OP flat calling on flop (don't like it but hand is well disguised) I think a push will get a call most times. Bad players love to stack off IMO. And well, if not, it's a decent pot anyways with a so-so hand. But I definately see where your coming from, probably something I need to work on at times, but then again I would have played the hand diff from the get go, and I rarely find myself in these positions.

[/ QUOTE ]
OP raised the flop.

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]So what about check/calling? That seems the best way to play against the weakest part of his range. Or are we too worried about a flush draw?

The thing I don't like about leading here is that I think it works out about the same as a push: he only calls with better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess in this hand I'm putting my faith in the fact that he is the bad player you say he is. From your read I assumed that he would call more hands than he would bet with but I wasn't at the table with him. My assumption was that he wouldn't bet those weaker hands in his range but would call with them (like any pocket pair).

If you now think he will only call with a better hand, and still think he will only bet his strong hands then c/f to any reasonable bet is best.

[raistlinx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course you are ahead more often than not here

[/ QUOTE ]Hand range?

(This is where I have difficulty playing against poor players who call too much- I have trouble putting him on a hand).

Do you think that QQ+ are out of his range?

[/ QUOTE ]
No I don't think QQ+ is out of his range. I think his range is any PP, any two hearts and even some hands like AQ, AT, hoping you raised with a flush draw.

However, we are only a coin flip at this point if we assume a range of:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.784% 48.08% 00.70% 1502 22.00 { QQ+, JdJh, TT-22, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, KhQh, KhJh, KhTh, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh }
Hand 1: 51.216% 50.51% 00.70% 1578 22.00 { JcJs }

but I still think there is some chance he could have a couple of overs at this point.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
If you now think he will only call with a better hand, and still think he will only bet his strong hands then c/f to any reasonable bet is best.

[/ QUOTE ]My only problem is that I don't know if what he considers "strong" beats me.

Arg, so I checked not sure what I was going to do if he bet, but thankfully he checked behind. River was the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which I again checked, planning to call this time (because while the flush got there, most of the hands he'd get there with contain the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], which we know he doesn't have).

After seeing the results I was kind of conflicted, wondering if I could have gotten more value. I hate how lost I felt on the turn. However, I also tell myself that winning a pot of 77 big blinds with just an overpair ain't bad.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $98.20
UTG+1: $56.70
MP1: $9
CO: $30.90
Button: $23.65
Hero: $52.45
BB: $10

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is SB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $2</font>, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($8.5, 4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $5.5</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($38.5, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks.

Results:
Final pot: $38.5
Hero showed Js Jc
UTG+1 mucks 7c 7s


I'm still not sure I like how I played this hand. I also don't know how much of a difference raising pre would have made. He would have def. called with his pair and I'd have led out on the flop, which he also would have called. On the turn I'd still be a little lost, but I'd probably be more certain that he didn't have KK+ since I would have expected him to re-pop pre. He'd also have less information about my hand given that I wouldn't have c/r him so if I checked the turn he probably would have bet. It's hard to say which line would have gotten more money in the pot, but raising pre probably would have made the hand easier to play.

[raistlinx]

I read this hand over last night and this morning. It seems like on one hand (at the first of the hand) this guy was a fish and then as the hand progressed you started second guessing yourself and now trying to "put him on a hand", which you can't do with a player like this.

Maybe this is why you were feeling lost all of a sudden?

[Specialwon]

I think you maybe missed out on one value bet on the turn, but hey not a bad pot for JJ, just be glad he donked as much money as he did. As you rightly say, bad players are very hard to read.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like on one hand (at the first of the hand) this guy was a fish and then as the hand progressed you started second guessing yourself and now trying to "put him on a hand", which you can't do with a player like this.

Maybe this is why you were feeling lost all of a sudden?

[/ QUOTE ]No question this is the reason I was feeling lost. Also, I never doubted that this guy was a fish, but fish can get good hands too. That's the problem I had- I still have to assign ranges for him, but it's a lot harder to do.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you maybe missed out on one value bet on the turn

[/ QUOTE ]No question I missed value as the hand played out, but I'm not so sure against possible hands he could play this way. In other words, if he plays QQ-AA exactly the same way as he plays 77-99, then betting the turn is break even at best. With the T on board, though, he definitely calls with QQ+ but might fold 77-99. Of course there are other hands in his range- sets and flush draws. So who knows really?

[threads13]

I am taking a look at this since Jeff asked me to join in.

I agree with a lot of the posters in here for the most part so I will just add what I can and highlight, imo, the key points.

I think everyone is are giving him a little too much credit on the turn. This guy will do this with Axh, imo. I think he would hang in there with with PP's on the flop, including 55/44. Also, I think you need to discount AA-QQ, although I think they could play this way(maybe only put one of them in his range in Poker Stove as a way of discounting). He also could have some suited connectors in there that work ok with this flop.

On the turn, I think the pot is big enough that you should feel ok betting the turn. Combine that with the fact that you don't want to give a free card to draws and that he will call with some worse hands and I think betting becomes more clear.

I think that pushing probably gets called just as much as a smaller bet, so I think that is fine as well.

[oober]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think with bad players, I tend to play big pots. I am ahead more times then not. I think you are ahead more then 2 out of 3 times here, so I push all day, if not oh well.

One question, is this a guy you see frequently? If so, I think the info you would gain from this hand would have some value, I dont mind losing a hand like this is it give me more info on someone's play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your thinking here is all wrong. Of course you are ahead more often than not here, but how often are you ahead if he calls your push? "Don't take away their rope"

[/ QUOTE ]

Thought about this, now if you bet $20 into a 38$ pot, if the villian is holding overs suited to flush draw are you not giving heavy implied, even with only 1 card to come.

Usually bad players will not put hero on a specific hand, but if he calculated that way he has the outs.