Too aggro 3rd/4th?

[trickyAAA]

I think the raise on third is the only play unless you intend to muck the hand at that point.

The raise on fourth is a play I definitely disagree with. You are drawing to a 4 or an A. Either card will likely make your hand good against both opponents. If your raise caused the player in seat three to have to call two bets cold, and the play might buy you a free card the next round, then I could justify it. But the fact is that there is little chance seat three is folding after he led out. Notice that when you do make your hand, and lead out, a caller you want at that point isn't there anymore, and the raise on fourth is possibly part of the reason why. Additionaly, with two players likely ahead of you, and 6 outs, you want to play as cheaply as possible. Like a said, a free card on fifth has to be part of the deal if you are going to raise, and I am not sure you would have gotten it had you not gotten your card.

[Andy B]

I did say that I thought folding was best.

[Andy B]

Not terrible. Suboptimal perhaps, but not terrible. Even with a couple of clubs gone, the live s00ted Ace makes your hand somewhat more attractive multi-way. You'd prefer that the hand be heads-up, but raising might not even do that for you anyway. I do think folding is best.

[greyhawke54]

Ok the way I read 7CSFAP this is the type of situation to raise on 3rd in. You are trying to knock out hands better than yours behind you by making them call 2 bets cold. By getting HU with the overcard you are in a coin flip even more so if the opp has a dead cards. I also understand that certain other conditions need to exist to perform this play, such as the table or players behind you have to be on the tight side and capable of folding. You also need to have a tight image. If these conditions do not exist then you should lean towards folding. Or am I misunderstanding what I read? I also do not like the raise on 4th.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok the way I read 7CSFAP this is the type of situation to raise on 3rd in. You are trying to knock out hands better than yours behind you by making them call 2 bets cold. By getting HU with the overcard you are in a coin flip even more so if the opp has a dead cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask yourself this - what is the villain's hand range, and what percentage of this hand range are you behind? Remember equity analysis isn't the best way to determine this, because you will rarely get past 5th street and often you will find a fold on 4th. Also re-read the book so you have a better understanding why so many are advocating a fold or at the very least a call rather than an isolating raise.

PS: In hold'em I make mental notes all the time when someone abuses the isolation move, those opponents are natural ATMs in the long run.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[dsaxton]

As Andy said, the advice in 7CSFAP is relevant primarily in higher ante games where the starting pot is more worth protecting, and where players do a lot of raising on 3rd street with high doorcards when they don't have the pair they're representing.

Given this structure, I'd either call or fold on 3rd, but folding might be the right play given the raiser's position. The 4th street raise only has value as a free card play, since it's highly unlikely that your hand is best. However, since it probably wouldn't be correct to call a bet on 5th street unimproved, I think this is a losing play.

[greyhawke54]

The way I was reading the hand this seemed like a good spot to do this type of play against the dead king. To hopefully get it heads up. I am also not saying to do this all the time. From the way I looked at this hand this was a pump it or dump it situation. Wouldnt calling be the worst option here. By raising here arent you making the guy with the 10's make a mistake? From what I have figured on 2dimes he would be taking the worst of it unless he had an ace kicker as well, then you and he would be even, and the overpair would have a slight edge on the both of us. Also wouldnt the small ante make this play better as the guy with the tens is making a bigger mistake as has to call 2 bets cold with nothing invested at this point but the ante? Knowing that he is most likely behind 1 opp and possibly 2 opps? If you know the players are not likely to think this way or are more likely to just play their cards and not worry about what other players may have, then this becomes a lot more of a folding situation.

PS: I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to think this through and improve my own thought process.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]

PS: I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to think this through and improve my own thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just re-read the 3rd street pages I pulled out for you, that should provide all the answers for you before you try to think it through again. Although your decision was flawed, take solace in knowing its far from a big mistake - its a tiny one.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[rory]

Mucking on third is bad. You will have the best position on every street unless you make a hand that beats the original raiser. The original raiser has a dead card. It will probably not get reraised behind you. All of your cards are live. How could this ever be a muck? I think reraising to try to get everyone out and also hoping the K rereaises and the middle guy folds so it gets heads up is the best play followed by calling. I'd never fold.

[rory]

Let's assume the middle guy gets out so it's me and the king. The only time I am ever folding my hand at any point is if he pairs his door card or hits a bunch of suited cards and I don't. I have the best position and I probably have at least 5 outs to win no matter what he hits. I will never know if he hits two pair so I have to assume I have some small two pair outs too. If I do hit one of my gin cards I will probably get to raise him too, especially if one of those cards is an ace. Also I have two flush cards so maybe I will hit one of those too and have some backdoor chances.