Tough spot. UB 2-7 $80-$160

InWithTheBest · #1 10-13-2006, 08:26 PM

Alright this game is 3 handed with me and two complete maniacs. Almost every hand is 3 bet pre-draw and theres plenty of chip spewing from both of them. Im playing reasonably tight for 3 handed play so that I can punish them when i make some hands, and stay away when im rough since ill get action no matter what.

Im in BB with 267.. button raises, sb 3-bets (the slightly better of the two of them) this is a fold for me in a tighter game but not this one.. i call. button calls

SB draws 2 I draw 2.. Button draws 3.. We check it around (first time thats happend).. Pot is $720 btw

We all draw 2 on second draw... I make 109762.. SB checks (almost always bets when he improves to 1 card draw in this spot). I bet.. button raises.. Buttons range (total snow, a made 10 or better or a 1 card 7 draw) By default i play small ball in this spot and just call and stand pat rather than 3-bet to avoid spewing chips when im beat. This may sound weak-tight but i dont do it often and it causes a lot of people to break better 10s and 9s.

Im totally surprised when SB calls two cold and the action comes back to me.. What do you guys do?

A) fold
B) Call and stand
C) Call and draw 1
D) Call and draw 2
E) spew it up with a 3 bet and gamble that your good and they will miss! hehe

DeathDonkey · #2 10-13-2006, 09:56 PM

I think the only choices are call and stand pat, or 3 bet. You can't break a T9 here and draw two or draw at the 97 imo and the pot is way too big to fold for one more bet closing the action. If you call and SB stands pat, now that would be weird, but I guess then you could draw 2. I would 3 bet.

-DeathDonkey

DustinG · #3 10-14-2006, 03:05 PM

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I think the only choices are call and stand pat, or 3 bet. You can't break a T9 here and draw two or draw at the 97 imo and the pot is way too big to fold for one more bet closing the action. If you call and SB stands pat, now that would be weird, but I guess then you could draw 2. I would 3 bet.

-DeathDonkey

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I think that calling and drawing 1 might be better than staying pat with the T9. Either way he is a dog to win to win, but with the money that is already out folding seems bad- the button only has to be raising a fraction of the time without a pat hand for calling to be correct.

I think drawing is probably better than staying pat (assuming the two choices are equally bad), because drawing makes it possible to get a bet in on the river.

I think 3 betting could only be correct if you somehow knew that you would lose a player as a result- but these guys probably aren't going anywhere.

Nate. · #4 10-14-2006, 03:22 PM

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I think the only choices are call and stand pat, or 3 bet. You can't break a T9 here and draw two or draw at the 97 imo and the pot is way too big to fold for one more bet closing the action. If you call and SB stands pat, now that would be weird, but I guess then you could draw 2. I would 3 bet.

-DeathDonkey

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I think that calling and drawing 1 might be better than staying pat with the T9. Either way he is a dog to win to win, but with the money that is already out folding seems bad- the button only has to be raising a fraction of the time without a pat hand for calling to be correct.

I think drawing is probably better than staying pat (assuming the two choices are equally bad), because drawing makes it possible to get a bet in on the river.

I think 3 betting could only be correct if you somehow knew that you would lose a player as a result- but these guys probably aren't going anywhere.

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I think standing pat (if the SB draws) is waaaay better than drawing, because if you're drawing one P(hit)*P(the bad 9 you make is good) is very small, and if you're drawing two P(hit) is by itself way too small. Forget the bet on the river; hoping your T9 stands up is a yucky spot but better than drawing.

Now, if the SB stands pat, it's probable your hand is no good. If you can't bluff him out you might as well try the Hail Mary and draw two. This is more opponent-dependent than anything else.

Then there's the idea of folding immediately -- if the SB stands pat we would love to take a bet back and chuck our hand -- but I'd guess that SB is usually drawing and the button is probably drawing too.

I think DeathDonkey is spot on here. It makes me cringe a little but taking it to 3 bets in tempo and praying might be best, and the only two viable options are that and calling+rapping pat.

OP: this is a good hand to discuss. Thanks.

--Nate

InWithTheBest · #5 10-14-2006, 07:11 PM

As far as the SB goes, its more likely he called two bets to draw two than that he is pat. Id put the odds at him playing a pat hand this way at close to zero if not zero.

Bill King · #6 10-14-2006, 08:04 PM

i'm thinking i'm calling and standing.. i think 3-betting is kind of a spew.

Nate. · #7 10-14-2006, 08:18 PM

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As far as the SB goes, its more likely he called two bets to draw two than that he is pat. Id put the odds at him playing a pat hand this way at close to zero if not zero.

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All right. Then folding has to be terrible, given the range you assigned to the button. Calling and drawing one is also terrible because it's basically a negative freeroll.

That leaves the only question as whether it's better to threebet or call. If you're up against two good draws you're a money dog (right?) but only slightly. Do you think you can induce a break of a better hand from the button?

Another important thing to consider here is that since he drew two he is more likely to be rough and might not need to be induced to break -- that is, he could have a jack or ten and be planning to stand if broken to and break if stood to. So in that case threebetting doesn't help.

At the end of the day the pot is big but not huge and I think that it's too long a parlay to make threebetting worth it, even considering the small immediate price you're paying if against two one-card draws.

So I'll stay in the call and stand camp.

--Nate

InWithTheBest · #8 10-14-2006, 11:15 PM

heres my problem with 3 betting.. Theres no possible combination of their holdings that makes me a favorite no matter what option i take.. Therefore putting a lot more money in the pot is a long term money loser.. Do you guys agree? I will post results soon

DeathDonkey · #9 10-15-2006, 04:42 AM

If SB draws two and button draws one (say even both to the nuts) I believe you are a money favorite. If I'm wrong about that then yeah I guess 3 betting isn't so hot. But even if you're a slight dog the chance that button breaks a better ten than you pushes it to a 3 bet IMO.

-DeathDonkey

HOWMANY · #10 10-15-2006, 05:15 AM

I like any line that involves showing down your hand.

I think folding is pretty bad because you will have the best hand a lot.

I think that drawing to a 9 is even worse because of what I just said, plus I feel like if your 10 isn't good then your 9 probably won't be very often.

I think that calling and standing pat is a good choice, but unfortunately against somewhat thinking opponents I'm guessing it will basically turn your hand somewhat face up and allow opponents to value bet/save bets accordingly.

I think that 3 betting is an okay choice because I think you're going to have the best hand a lot and if he caps I'm guessing that makes your next play super easy.

I think calling and drawing 2 is the worst option and wouldn't even consider it a real option.

Call and pat > 3 bet pat > fold > draw to a 9.

I thought about it a bit more while I was typing, and now I feel like just trying to showdown cheaply may be a lot better than I originally thought, and that 3 betting might be such a spew that it is actually somewhat close to folding in the value of the play. I still do not like drawing at all.