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  #71  
Old 12-01-2007, 09:29 PM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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I don't understand this attitude that living things are somehow entitled to be free of suffering. That an injustince was done in that we were created incomplete. I have never felt incomplete.

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It's sad that you don't understand the attitude, but it's irrelevant. We aren't talking about entitlement.

God had two choices - a world of great suffering or a world of less suffering. As God is omnipotent, the level of suffering is independent of other considerations (for an omnipotent being, one variable is not dependent on another variable unless he wants it to be). Therefore, by choosing the world of great suffering (a world where suffering tends to increase unless systematic effort is applied against it), God established that greater suffering is inherently desirable to lesser suffering. Therefore God is evil.

This is the "short version" of the argument, of course.
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  #72  
Old 12-01-2007, 09:32 PM
VarlosZ VarlosZ is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

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Sure, but would you actually be a Hindu?

I live in New York City. I think I'd be happier if I believed that New York had the greatest weather in the world. For that reason, I naturally want to believe that we do have the greatest weather. But I don't believe it, because belief doesn't work that way.

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But I am a Christian because of the grace of faith. Without that grace, I could not be absolutely sure of an afterlife of happiness.

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I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying that because of your faith you are certain of an afterlife of happiness if you remain Christian, hence the EV for you is overwhelmingly in favor being a Christian, and that's why you choose Christianity?

If so, that's fine by me, but it's kind of a wierd spiritual hedonism, don't you think?
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  #73  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:10 PM
Kaj Kaj is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Peter,

So, did you decide to be Christian because you think you'll be happiest that way? And if you thought you'd be happier as a Hindu, would you convert?

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Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

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You'd be a lot happier sitting around stoned out of your mind. Go for it. Or maybe based on your posts, you already are. For your sake I hope so.
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  #74  
Old 12-01-2007, 11:56 PM
DougShrapnel DougShrapnel is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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The same thing that makes us recognize Stalin and Mao as evil, is what is so evil about religion. It is not that they are atheists. It's that they demand your heart and your mind. They wish to have total control over every aspect of our lives private and personal. They want to have control over our sons and daughters. Our labor and our pleasure. We can give nothing short of obedience to them.

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If you want to make valid points against the Pope's encycical you have show that the Pope was wrong when he made the statement "The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism". If you do not make an argument against that statement it appears you agree with that statement and just have a double standard.

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]What double standard? If you mean that the type of morality that religions provides is evil then I agree with the Pope. Removing some insidious "morality", that is religion, could be considered a type of moralism. If you mean that atheism is some positive assertion on morality then no, I disagree with the pope. There is no moral system that atheism suggests.

The claim the Pope is making has a lot more wrong with it then just the statement that atheism is a type of morality. The problem is he is blaming atheism for the great totalitarian regimes. I'm correcting him, and everyone else that somehow thinks atheism is the deciding factor in what made those cruel regimes bad.

It's not a double standard. Totalitarian states are de facto theocracies. They are all evil, and commit all sort of cruel acts. It's the religious that have a double standard here. Those states were bad because of their nature, the same nature that religion wants to impose.

The worst part about this argument is it wreaks of sure religion has committed all sorts of atrocities, but atheism is the cause of far worse ones. Please to be explaining what made those regimes "bad". If you say anything other then atheism, have a pow wow with the pope and you two can sort this out.

And if you thinks it's atheism. Fine, we can count up the crusades, the suicide bombers of Islam and Japan. The torture of religious indoctrination has on some youth. The babies that die from botched circumcision. The dulled pleasure that results from circumcision or it's counter procedure or removing the clitoris. Aids in Africa caused by the edict that condoms are immoral. The oppression of women, the encouragement of slavery.............. And you might, might be able to say that religion is one step above pond scum.

Enjoy the pyrrhic victory.
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  #75  
Old 12-02-2007, 01:38 AM
Insp. Clue!So? Insp. Clue!So? is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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So the only thing stopping you from suicide is your religon. Sucks but maybe explains why you cling to it so desperately.

chez

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From a long list of theist poster comments on here, it's also what keeps them from being sociopaths. Perhaps a psych test of some sort should be administered at puberty and the morbid states of mind get you admitted to a seminary for a year of therapeutic indoctrination.

luckyme

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Oh they say these things but it's just evidence of dulled imagination. They do fine after the cold water hitting their face dried a few minutes later. Most of them anyway.
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  #76  
Old 12-02-2007, 02:38 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

Hi Luckyme,

I was just trying to point out that he OP hasn't attacked anything the Pope actually said. On the contrary, the OP seems to agree with the Pope that a "moralism" can produce evil.

Here's what the Pope basically said

Atheism of the 19th and 20th century is a "moralism"
He outlined why it is a "moralism"
He gave reasons why it arose and became accepted.
He stated it has "led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice".
He made an argument why athiesm would lead to such to such cruelty and injustice - more so than a religious moralism.

Stu
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  #77  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:07 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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If you mean that atheism is some positive assertion on morality then no, I disagree with the pope.


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So you do not agree that God should be contested for morality sake? I hear that all the time from atheist. They wish to convince people to be atheist for that very reason - to end the cruelty the belief in God and religion create. I hear that sentiment coming from you. Have I just been misunderstanding you because it seems to me that sentiment is a positive assertion on morality.

Stu
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  #78  
Old 12-02-2007, 03:57 AM
MidGe MidGe is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Peter,

So, did you decide to be Christian because you think you'll be happiest that way? And if you thought you'd be happier as a Hindu, would you convert?

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Yes, if I was convinced that a Hindu could be happier than a Christian after all was said and done, I would naturally want to be a Hindu.

But I am a Christian because of the grace of faith. Without that grace, I could not be absolutely sure of an afterlife of happiness.

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You seem to make the words "grace" and "delusion" interchangeable!
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