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  #11  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:20 AM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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"A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God,"


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The inhabitants of this earth create the injustice and innocent suffering. The inhabitants of this earth have it in their power to eliminate it. Why should God be held responsible for its existence and mans choice not to eliminate it?

Stu

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Ditto everything good, right?
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  #12  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:21 AM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Well, Ratzinger is trying to blame it on atheism.

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Perhaps he said thats because athiestic regimes have caused more suffering than theistic ones.

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The pope also writes "We must do all we can to overcome suffering, but to banish it from the world is not in our power, Only God is able to do this."

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Its in the power of man to eliminate innocent suffering(e.g. children straving because the invading army burned the crops). Its not in man's power to eliminate all natural suffering(e.g. children straving becuase a locust investation destroyed the crops)

Stu

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Oh ok so God is still responsible for billions of death and hundreds of billions of people suffering. WHEW!!
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  #13  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:14 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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"The atheism of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries is -- in its origins and aims -- a type of moralism: a protest against the injustices of the world and of world history. A world marked by so much injustice, innocent suffering, and cynicism of power cannot be the work of a good God. A God with responsibility for such a world would not be a just God, much less a good God. It is for the sake of morality that this God has to be contested. Since there is no God to create justice, it seems man himself is now called to establish justice. If in the face of this world's suffering, protest against God is understandable, the claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false. It is no accident that this idea has led to the greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice; rather, it is grounded in the intrinsic falsity of the claim. A world which has to create its own justice is a world without hope. No one and nothing can answer for centuries of suffering. No one and nothing can guarantee that the cynicism of power, whatever beguiling ideological mask it adopts, will cease to dominate the world."

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That's some bad logic. Some really egregious reasoning.

Okay. If God is omniscient, and God is omnipotent, and God is omnibenevolent, and God created the world, then the world will not be rife with suffering, cruelty and injustice. But the world is rife with such, therefore God doesn't exist.

Now then. Humans aren't omni-anything. Nor did humans create the world. But humans can influence the world to some extent, in their own sloppy way. And the influences can accrue over time, resulting in a world with less cruelty, suffering, and injustice.

I don't know how the Pope conflates these two wholly separate arguments. Sadly, he favors rhetoric to intelligent discourse. But he does say one thing that's easy to smash. "The claim that humanity can and must do what no God actually does or is able to do is both presumptuous and intrinsically false." Uh, yeah. Atheists don't believe in any gods. The first argument isn't saying that an omnix3 God lacks the power to do good, it's saying that an omnix3 God doesn't exist. Popie even acknowledges this beforehand. So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things. Far from being presumptuous (much less intrinsically false), this follow logically from the premise that there is no God.
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  #14  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:20 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Oh ok so God is still responsible for...hundreds of billions of people suffering.

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Hundreds of billions? I think not, there hasn't been that many of us born yet. Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

Stu
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  #15  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:26 AM
vhawk01 vhawk01 is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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[ QUOTE ]
Oh ok so God is still responsible for...hundreds of billions of people suffering.

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Hundreds of billions? I think not, there hasn't been that many of us born yet. Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

Stu

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What are you talking about? Its not me who is blaming him, its you. You said God is responsible for natural occurances, just not man-made ones. So hunger and cold and disease and all that lot.

And sorry, I added an "s" in there, I meant hundred, not hundreds, I guess.

Although I suppose its safe to assume that pre-human primates suffered as well. They maybe were not the responsibility of God though?

Wow, actually, that animals feel pain at all is a pretty big deal right?
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  #16  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:33 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Anyways if you want to blame God for the fact that all humans at some point succumb to the rigors of the ecosystem go right ahead. I don't but I'm the type of guy who doesn't blame the Michelin Man when the tires on my car wear out either.

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Did God create humans? Did God create the natural environment?

As for the Michelin Man, he can only create tires within certain parameters. He's not very powerful, see. His tires are subject to God's natural laws. And God chose to make entropy the basis of nature. So, if God exists, it is God's fault - not the Michelin Man's - when your tires wear out.
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  #17  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:33 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

Madnak,

The Pope is talking about the atheistic regimes that arose in the 19th and 20th century. Your wrote:

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So humanists aren't placing themselves above God, they are merely suggesting that we - human beings - are the most powerful entities in our immediate vicinity. And that therefore we have the best chance of improving things.

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Stalin and Mao would agree with you. The Pope is saying that when these regimes took God out of the equation, injustice and innocent suffering increased.

Stu
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  #18  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:35 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

Stalin and Mao wouldn't agree with me. Stalin and Mao came from completely different directions - they weren't humanists. We can only say so much about their motivations, but their principles were as far from humanism as is possible.
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  #19  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:51 AM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

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Stalin and Mao wouldn't agree with me

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Sure they would, they were atheist. If they wouldn't agree with your statement that humans are the most powerful entities therefore have the best chance of improving things, where would they place their faith?

Stu
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  #20  
Old 12-01-2007, 04:07 AM
madnak madnak is offline
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Default Re: Pope blames atheism for all the worlds problems.

In themselves, not in the human race. In an elite group of authorities with no real philosophical basis.
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