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  #91  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:04 PM
sharkscopeaholic sharkscopeaholic is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

They made the choice to go into someones house. They made the choice to steal from someones house. They made the choice to run away despite someone yelling to stop running while holding a gun. What did they expect? The civilian didn't create the threat, the robbers did when they decided to break into someones home.
  #92  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:07 PM
FlyWf FlyWf is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
Fly,

"This thread is an embarrassment to EDF, fwiw."

How so?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's full of politics, for one thing. I guess that's the cause of the other thing, the extreme absurdity of people seriously saying "What about all the other criminals or would-be criminals that hear about this and think again?", so I guess it's just that one thing. But really, it's a politics thread, so you've got some incredibly retarded things being said.
  #93  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:12 PM
MuresanForMVP MuresanForMVP is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
They made the choice to go into someones house. They made the choice to steal from someones house. They made the choice to run away despite someone yelling to stop running while holding a gun. What did they expect? The civilian didn't create the threat, the robbers did when they decided to break into someones home.

[/ QUOTE ]




You listened to the call right? This guy is guilty as hell. On what grounds should he be acquitted? It doesn't sound like the castle doctrine or make my day exception apply here at all. This was a case of vigilante justice gone wrong.

Of course they had the choice to not break into a house and take a VCR, but luckily that has no bearing on the decision. The ultimate decision rested upon the man, and it was his decision that resulted in two men getting murdered. Individual citizens do not have the right to use deadly force against someone fleeing from a burglary (from another's home). No matter how you slice it, they just don't unless THEY force a threat upon the person or their family. I have to go but there have been instances where someone was burgling a house, a citizen intervened and fired upon the thief, who then fired back, killing the man. The thief was not charged with murder.
  #94  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:16 PM
PITTM PITTM is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To be honest I have no problem with what the guy did. I think that shooting people robbing houses isnt a real bad thing for society to have. Things like calling the guy a hero are what is completely baffling to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well not to be a nit but they were burglarizing an empty house, burglary<robbery. That's an important distinction. Protecting your own house with deadly force is completely fine with me, but going around taking the law into your own hands over a "bag of loot" is going way too far. The two thieves were probably scum bags, but people don't have the right to just go around greasing those they determine to be scum bags.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its pretty sweet that burglars now have to worry about getting shot a bit more than they once had.
  #95  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:20 PM
Cornell Fiji Cornell Fiji is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
Tennessee vs. Garner for anyone who's interested

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting case but am I right in thinking that it has no bearing in terms of precedent or anything else because it is state court and not federal, correct?

As far as this case goes I agree that no life is worth property. I don't care how much is being stolen. I was raised that if someone wants to steal your car you just hand it over because 'its just a car and items can be replaced.' Killing somoene so that they can not escape from a burglary boggles my mind as do the posters (other than boris who is obviously trolling) who defend the neighbor's actions
  #96  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:25 PM
PITTM PITTM is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

meh i would prefer people not have to replace their car. Also less people would have to replace their car if carjacker is lying on the ground dead imo.
  #97  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:36 PM
Runkmud Runkmud is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

I'm a gun rights proponent and I have a concealed weapons permit, that said, this guy talked himself into what he thought was justifiable homicide. If evidence is presented that the men were armed, or attempted to attack the shooter, then and only then will I change my view.

I'm saddened that this man was doing what he thought was the honorable thing and misunderstood his rights within the law. We tend to think of our neighborhoods as part of our home, but the law states differently.

When he exited the house and gave what was an insufficient amount of reaction time to presumably unarmed men, and then shot them, if this is indeed the way it happened, he commited murder.
  #98  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:52 PM
ChicagoTroy ChicagoTroy is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They made the choice to go into someones house. They made the choice to steal from someones house. They made the choice to run away despite someone yelling to stop running while holding a gun. What did they expect? The civilian didn't create the threat, the robbers did when they decided to break into someones home.

[/ QUOTE ]
You listened to the call right? This guy is guilty as hell. On what grounds should he be acquitted?

[/ QUOTE ]
He called the police who did not arrive. He went out to detain the thieves, and they ran at him. Frightened for his safety, he shot them. In Texas? I'm pretty sure he walks. I think he walks in San Francisco.
[ QUOTE ]
This was a case of vigilante justice gone wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would have been gone right? IMO, going out there and holding them at gunpoint would have been ideal, but the knucklhead robbers have something to say about that, however briefly.
[ QUOTE ]
Of course they had the choice to not break into a house and take a VCR, but luckily that has no bearing on the decision. The ultimate decision rested upon the man, and it was his decision that resulted in two men getting murdered.

[/ QUOTE ]
I can't believe someone would actually write this. People breaking into the house had EVERYTHING to do with the decision. This guy wasn't holding up randoms on the street, he went out to stop two criminals victimizing his community.
[ QUOTE ]
Individual citizens do not have the right to use deadly force against someone fleeing from a burglary (from another's home). No matter how you slice it, they just don't unless THEY force a threat upon the person or their family.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whether somebody is being threatened or not can be extremely subjective when he is frightened. The thief does not say, "I am not threatening you with violence" as he runs towards him. The guy gets back on the phone in a very agitated state saying they ran at him. Sounded believable to me.
  #99  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:55 PM
waarior waarior is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

[ QUOTE ]
waa - Let me get this straight. The man decided to be a highly responsible gun owner and educated himself about relevant Texas gun laws. He demonstrated this knowledge to the 911 dispatcher, repeatedly. Then all of a sudden he goes outside with the express intent of using his weapon in an unlawful manner. Riiiiiiiiight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I simply said I interpreted his statements to the operator to be him rationalizing shooting the men before going outside. Part of this rationalization process is assuring himself that he can legally shoot the men before doing.

So if he goes outside and uses his shotgun it will be in a lawful manner (and if he is not charged an apparently correct assumption).

As many others have mentioned he had called 911 and was on the phone for 6 minutes with a dispatcher who repeatedly told him to remain inside. The non-spontaneity of the act combined with what his perceived knowledge of the law (believing that he could likely kill the burglars legally) leads me to conclude that he went outside planning to shoot, not simply to detain them for the police to arrive.

That is why I find his actions despicable.
  #100  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:57 PM
burningyen burningyen is offline
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Default Re: Man kills 2 People While 911 Is Telling Him Not To

I'm not a Texas lawyer, so this is not legal advice, etc. Here are what I believe are the applicable statutes, including the law that went into effect in September (the protection of property defenses don't apply because they only justify the use of deadly force at night):

§ 19.02. MURDER.
...
(b) A person commits an offense if he:
(1) intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an
individual;
(2) intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits
an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an
individual; ...

§ 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.
(a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary
to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was
immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed
to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person
against whom the force was used:
...
(C) was committing or attempting to commit
aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery; [and]
(2) did not provoke the person against whom the force
was used;
...
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
...
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force,
...
(e) A person who has a right to be present at the location
where the force is used, [and] who has not provoked the person against
whom the force is used, ... is not required to retreat before
using force as described by this section.

§ 9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.
(a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force
against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the
other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual
assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.
...
(c) A person who has a right to be present at the location
where the deadly force is used, who has not provoked the person
against whom the deadly force is used, and who is not engaged in
criminal activity at the time the deadly force is used is not
required to retreat before using deadly force as described by this
section.
...
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