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30001-40000 1 1.52%
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dont care /resutls please 18 27.27%
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  #1  
Old 10-29-2007, 02:52 AM
davidcphindex davidcphindex is offline
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Default Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

I'm teaching a very mathamaticaly-inclined person how to play, and was asked; ''How much better are suited cards compared to unsuited?'' I realized I didn't have a very good answer... and wanted to be a bit more thorough than ''It depends''.

My question is; In general... for any two cards... how much better are two suited cards compared to unsuited?

thanks in advance...


david
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2007, 04:40 AM
fybpm fybpm is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

Depends on what cards they are up against. Roughly 2.5-4%.

Best hand against AA is 78 suited, of a different suit than both aces.

AA vs 78suited (22%)
AA vs 78offsuit (19%)

Use a baseline of 3%.
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2007, 05:59 AM
davidcphindex davidcphindex is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

Excellent answer... thanks!


david
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  #4  
Old 10-29-2007, 06:20 AM
tme03 tme03 is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

Ran this through Poker Stove:

All Suited Cards: A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,82s+,72s+,62s+,52s+, 42s+,32s
All Unsuited Cards: A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J2o+,T2o+,92o+,82o+,72o+,62o+,52o+, 42o+,32o

Equity:
Suited - 52.7%
Unsuited - 47.3%
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2007, 06:32 AM
2hi4me2cu 2hi4me2cu is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

[ QUOTE ]
Best hand against AA is 78 suited, of a different suit than both aces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the best hand vs AA was 56 suited?
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  #6  
Old 10-29-2007, 06:40 AM
case3 case3 is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

Even for the most mathematically oriented player using a baseline percentage increase in hand value will lead to incorrectly valuing hand strength preflop.

Looking at the example above the suited hand wins about 3% more often overall, relative to its off suit rate though it improves 15%. Put another way imagine if a hand won 1% of the time, an increase to 2% would only be 1% more but it would be winning twice as often.

More importantly a suited hand can make a flush or flush draw more often than an off suit hand and that value is what make the difference.

Two examples:

AK vs a random hand in a 2 person HU game. The suited AK would win a showdown about 1.7% more often from an already high 65%, aside from that the majority of hands would be played with the value of AK making a pair or showing down unimproved.

23 vs a 8 way field of probable holdings. The suited hand would, in a showdown situation, win about 3% more, or 30% relative. Playing the hand with out assuming a showdown the suited hand is a great improvement. In a hand like this 32 needs to make a flush, wheel, or maybe 2pair/trips to win. The flush is a big part of these strong made hands needed to win.
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  #7  
Old 10-29-2007, 09:49 AM
ragtop chop ragtop chop is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

lol and ive always thought it was 76 suited...wtf
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  #8  
Old 10-29-2007, 11:15 AM
sapol sapol is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

[ QUOTE ]
lol and ive always thought it was 76 suited...wtf

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Why the lol?
2. It is 76ss
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2007, 11:23 AM
jcl jcl is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

Suitedness makes an ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE. You can't just take the 'hot and cold' percentages because who here gets it all in preflop with 76s frequently? Similarly, 22 is never better than 50/50 vs anything when run hot and cold but it is a much better hand than KJo in actual play.

The reason for this is easy. Say you open ATo and get a caller on the button. The flop comes KJ5 with 2 hearts and you make a continuation bet (an ill-advised one at that). The button raises you. You fold.

Now let's say you have ATs (hearts). You make your c-bet, the button raises, you shove. You either win the pot or have at least 12 outs and possibly 15. The difference in profit will be enormous and MUCH larger than 2 or 3%.

Similarly, say you are the button boy and have a raise to you. If I looked down at 97o I'd instant muck without a second thought whereas 97s would almost be an instant call. Now say the flop comes down K72 with 2 hearts. You'd have to fold to a second barrel here a lot of the time with 97o while 97s can be played aggressively either on the flop or on the turn.

So how much does suitedness matter? LOTS!
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  #10  
Old 10-29-2007, 11:59 AM
2hi4me2cu 2hi4me2cu is offline
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Default Re: Suited Cards VS Unsuited Cards

im not calling many raises with 97 suited, i people over-estimate having suited cards.

If your calling a raise with 97 and the flop comes K79, dont complain if you get all in against KK,77,99 -or KA, KQ, KJ with the turn or river being JQ or A

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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