25/50 Live Flopped Flush

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Some mathematics.

Pot odds = 5800/18300 = 0.3169

hand analysis
30% vs two high diamonds K8+ A8+, 2 outs, 8% chance to win, so 30%*8% = 2.4%
10% vs diamonds 7x 2x 27, 1 out, just no chance
30% vs one high diamond, 70% to win, so 21% chance
30% vs sets, 70% to win, so 21% chance

your chance = 44%

hence CALL

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny how I only had to read the first two lines to know its a crying call with no great read on the villain even with the table talk.

Could he be throwing fake tells at you..I do it sometimes.

I mean thats straight out of Caro..."villain asks for clarification then makes a strong raise".

If it isnt a fake tell I need to build my roll up and take a shot at 25-50 live.

[zaxx19]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone but UTG+1 in this hand has 15k, only he matters though. He has 8100 to start the hand or so. He limps. In 2 hours I've only seen him get to showdown once and it was when he check/called 89x, then check/raised a 7 turn and got it in with TJ. Seems very straightforward old guy who's kind of tired at 2 a.m. and not at all a tough player. Keep in mind though that I've been playing 2 hours so my sample size is about 40 hands.

I've been playing tight by my standards but the table probably thinks I'm crazy because they're all a bunch of old nits who have seen me bluff once and think I'm a lunatic now because nobody at 25/50 would ever bet 3k on the turn without a monster but apparently I did once. I have played basically no big pots.

Anyway, onto the hand. Fish makes it 300 in, two callers, I call from SB w/3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], UTG+1 limps.
Flop (1500) 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, UTG+1 checks, preflop raiser bets $300, button calls. I check raise to $2300.
UTG+1 goes "how much is it?" Dealer tells him and about 3-5 seconds later he pushes all in for 5800 more.
Preflop raiser says something like "Young grasshopper (that's what he calls me because he's an annoying old guy) I was going to do that if he didn't. Whoo-eey. Sorry fellas, I got to think here. He stands up, grabs his crotch,and contemplates the situation staring at me and folds. Button thinks for a sec, shakes his head, and folds also.

So there's $12,500 in the pot and it's 5800 to me.

Call or fold?

[/ QUOTE ]


Just read the part where you uncover what happened...I think you could have been clearer about how passive/tight the game was...I mean at 25-50 I expect a "nit" to still push against a perceived LAG there sometimes with a strong hand like a set of...in fact alot of times.

Maybe im overestimating some of the 25-50 play...iunno Ive never gone above 10/20.

[DeMaci]

Seems like a standard fold. This is never a combo draw, its a bigger flush.

[ghbond]

I have a question.

Online, if I have my usual aggro image, this is an insta-call. Villain has higher flush maybe one in five, sucks out on a high-card flush draw one in 5, and the rest of the time loses with some other hand.

With these old fellas, why would they want to chase the rest of your money out with AI if they have the higher flush?

Of course the guy told you it was a good fold. But I can't imagine ever shoving on the flop with a higher flush, unless I'm sure you will shut down if I just call your bet. I want ALL your money, so I'm going to squirm and wriggle and look as conflicted as possible and call your flop raise, try to suck more out of you later. Most times I get it all.

If these guys are really that bad, I'll be sure to look for them.

As far as the few seconds to decide, if this guy has been playing a long time, he's likely made this move many times before, and he knows you'll be more scared if he makes it quickly. I tend to bet quickly and casually when I'm on a bluff against a stronger hand live against older players. I agree the "how much is it?" is likely part of the bluff.

It's hard to flop a flush. You are getting odds on a flopped flush. I bet he had Kings or Aces, and he really thinks you made a good fold because you shouldn't have been in the pot with ur rag hand anyway.

I've played with plenty of old guys, some who almost never bluff unless it is completely obvious, but never seen one who wanted to chase someone away from going up against the nuts. Even if he thinks you ARE crazy, why take a chance of scaring you off when he has you on the hook?

[FiSheYe]

I like a smaller check-raise and a fold.. Given the way you played it I still like a fold but it really hurts to get ride of a straightflushdraw. If you would have a better flush I lean towards calling because old men overvalue a flush too often.. given that you have the lowest possible flush it's easier to get away.. Anways I think it's a very good but tough fold because old men sometimes feel like young guns shouldn't push them around and want to show who the man is then make some very bad pushs with hands that shouldn't be involved.. Given that you think Ad was folded and nobody is this "old-teach-the-young-gun" grandpa I conclude that calling isn't a real option anymore.
well played

[cero_z]

Just to chime in from someone who plays a lot of live poker, this is always a fold vs. the guy you described, and it really makes no difference if the Ad is known to be out somewhere else. He never has a set, he always has a flush, you have 2 or fewer outs (usually exactly 2 if the Ad isn't in his hand, since he really can only have JTd, T9d, maybe KJd).

[Lefort]

How exactly does villain play a set here? Obv no matter what he does he takes longer than 5 seconds... and I fold the hand as well.. but just curious how this type of player plays 44/66 here..

[Lefort]

These are the type of spots where my thoughts get muffled because if HERO has a decision to make with K8, then it seems like villain CRing worse 8's is pretty bad.. but it also means that its probably a good spot to bluff..

How sick would it be if he turned 98 into a bluff, and was fully aware? lol..

[PokerZombi]

I agree with the play. This is hand that should be played very differently from online given the live information you had. If this were online and short handed I agree with hthe others, I'd call in short order. HOWEVER since you have extra information.

1.) You can see they are all tight straightforward old guys.
2.) It is multiway and you see two reluctant folders. One old guy who addressed you 'young grasshopper' said if it weren't for other all-in he would have put you all in. That really sounds like he folded a set. The other reluctant old guy fold looked to be an ace of diamonds draw.

Your opponent would have played a decent sized flush this way while afraid of the ace of diamonds.

Even with 2-1 pot odds you're getting I'd say you're a dog. Given your over raise, the 2 reluctant folders, table talk and the all-in person in question I'd say you're at least a 4-1 dog over his range.

[RaSZi]

I think the 'how much is it' explains most of it. 2300 speaks for itself especially if u bet it in 5 chips. From my experience people always have the (second) nuts here.