Help me to figure it out (75/150 Stars)

Borys313 · #1 07-12-2007, 07:20 AM

This hands left me puzzled.

PokerStars 75/150 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, Button raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below: 
Button has Ah 5c Kc Ts (High: one pair, nines).
Hero has 7c 8d 2c 5d (High: one pair, nines).
Outcome: Button wins 6 BB. 

His turn check doesnt make much sense cause the 9 isnt a scary card so he is probably weak but never supposed that much weak.

Question 1?

Does any of you bet out here on river (Villian has a tendency to showdown quite light) ??

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PokerStars 75/150 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 raises, Hero ????

MP2 is agro, although once he flatcalled all the way with a str-8 which left me puzzled.

Qustion 2?

Do you call, and if yes whats your plan on scary rivers?

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PokerStars 75/150 Omaha/8 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3.83 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (3.83 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 3.83 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ad Qc Ks 5c (High: two pair, aces and sevens).
Button has Jd 3h As Jh (High: two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 3.83 BB. 

Qusetion 3??

Valuebet river? Villian range for 3-bet is quite wide although usually this are hands with low potential.

Shabamabam · #2 07-12-2007, 12:16 PM

Hand 1. It makes sense for Villain's line. And the 9 does change quite a bit.

On the turn, if you're going to CALL one bet, why not be the bettor?

Hand 2.

Fold the flop. There's just way too little cards on teh turn that will come for you to continue on.

Hand 3.

Check/call is best. Just get to showdown cheap.

TxRedMan · #3 07-12-2007, 02:58 PM

hand 1 is really standard.

he three bets the flop because often times, and often enough, when he puts in the last raise on the flop he dictates the action on the turn. so he effectively saved one small bet, and was very wise to do so, because odds are you'll now be trying to checkraise him when you hit, and if he catches his gutter 3 big bets go in on the turn. in sum, three betting the flop saves one small bet because he's not forced to call a bet on the turn.

hand 2 is extremely marginal, and the only cards that you can catch on the turn that you'll like are kings, jacks, nines, and threes. the thing that most people dont realize about spots like this is that it's okay to call the flop, but most people get in a lot of trouble once they do call the flop. i.e., they continue in the hand when they shouldn't, and the flop call leads to a turn call which almost inevitably means you're going to showdown unless a terrible card falls. if you can't snap-fold this turn then you shouldn't be proceeding past the flop. IMHO, it's slightly + EV to call the flop, but it also puts you in a position where your decisions are going to be very difficult and most players should fold the flop because they end up making mistakes later on in the hand.

hand 3 i'd play it about the same. i dont mind checking the flop because A23 or A24 or any A-wheel-wheel hand is a great possibility for your opponent. i'm surprised he didn't bet the turn. you wouldn't check raise him with very many hands on that turn, and he's ahead of a lot of hands, especially given your action. I value bet this river, though, because you would have heard about it by now if he has aces and sevens or aces and tens or a set of aces. Yeah, so, value town time.

Borys313 · #4 07-12-2007, 07:56 PM

Thx for the insight.

I folded nr.2 mainly because of potential scare cards on river.

And wasnt sure if its not gonna be 4bets on turn and I cant justify calling that much with 2 pair, although i might be still good vs some wraps.

Shabamabam · #5 07-13-2007, 12:32 PM

tx on hnd3: don't know why he checked turn.

Just curious on why you think that he should bet the turn here (villain). Also, if Hero leads river and Villain raises river, can you find a fold?

Borys313 · #6 07-13-2007, 12:56 PM

Hand nr3.

He didnt bet turn because he knows I have an ace 90% of the time and go nowhere. The game was 7-handed and I raised from early postion, my hand just had to hit that flop somehow. Instead he opted for a cheap showdown, well played sir.

And if I would bet river for value I never fold to a raise.
Just read TX analysis to see why such raise has to be a desparate bluff

cero_z · #7 07-17-2007, 04:43 AM

Hi Borys,

Interesting. I would've played these hands very differently, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

Hand 1: Pre-flop call is standard and good. Flop c/r is good--on a 2-hi board, you have a chance to take control and win w/o showdown. But, since lots of players at these stakes will auto-bluff a flop like this vs. the pre-flop raiser, you can expect him to 3-bet you with a good pair (AJ, AA, etc). He doesn't need to be super-strong to 3-bet you. I 4-bet it to show him I'm serious, and that may win the pot for me if the board bricks off bad for his hand on the turn or he was raising with a big draw and doesn't get there. Thus, I'd be betting the 9 all day if I'd capped it, but as played, I think you should c/c and c/f if you don't make a straight on the river. His turn play is consistent with both a house that has you likely drawing dead, and with a bluff/semi-bluff/overplay on the flop that lost its nerve and now fears a c/r. Even so, in my experience people are paying off REALLY light here if you bet the river, so don't bluff. It's too late now.

Hand 2: Pre-flop and flop are standard and good, though leading the flop makes sense, as well. The turn, though, is a clear lead, IMO. There's a good chance you have the best hand, and you should charge the lows. You have small backup (T or maybe J will win sometimes) if you're trailing. Checking is criminal IMO. Once it goes bet, raise, though, you need to fold; you're going to the river 3 ways, which is real bad for your hand.

Hand 3: You have a straight-up value cap pre-flop, once the pot is HU. Your hand does very well vs. A23x even. I'd probably c/c the flop as well; not a very good one for you. The turn isn't great, either, but I think you should usually bet there if your opponent isn't tricky (liable to have checked a very good hand behind on the flop). You now have a little low working, and he could be very weak, with like AQQJ or something. The river is a great card for you; don't see how you don't bet that for value.

Edited to say Tx made a ton of good points about Hand 1 in particular.

TxRedMan · #8 07-18-2007, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
tx on hnd3: don't know why he checked turn.

Just curious on why you think that he should bet the turn here (villain). Also, if Hero leads river and Villain raises river, can you find a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think villain should bet his hand to protect it and push out a potential chop. i.e., villain has position, hero checks the flop, so does villain- this could mean a lot of things. usually players play their hands strangely when an ace flops and they have one in their hand. i've heard a 1000 times people say "how did an ace get out there", especially when it's a multi way pot. i digress. point is, players often play their hand weaker when an ace flops and there's one in their hand, especially in a spot like this.

if villain bets the turn, hero will be hard pressed to call when he has a hand like AK28 or the like, or basically any hand where hero has to consider he might be drawing slim to one half of the pot or the other. villain in this hand has a good deal of FE in this spot. i dont consider it a value bet per se, b/c you dont want to get called, obviously. it's more of a protection/fold equity type bet.

and to answer your other question, i wouldn't bet this river if i was planning on folding to a check raise, but i dont recall ever seeing the action go check/check, check/check, check/bet/raise on an ace high paired board that had a low possible. but no, i wouldn't bet/fold here. anytime i bet a river HU, i'm going to showdown more than, say, 95% of the time, because there's nothing worse than not going to showdown for the same price you could have gone to showdown for.

cero_z · #9 07-19-2007, 09:40 PM

Hi Tx,

[ QUOTE ]
there's nothing worse than not going to showdown for the same price you could have gone to showdown for.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell if you're joking, or if you mean in this specific hand, or what, but your statement as a generalization is very, very wrong. There are countless spots in SH O8 where you should take actions that will sometimes result in you not getting to showdown as cheaply (or indeed not at all) as you could've.

Here's a fairly common example: You are facing a pretty passive, abc station, who's been betting all the way HU and you make the 2nd nut flush on the river. You check the river, and he bets again. Many players would bet any flush, and will usually call a raise with any flush they bet, but never 3-bet without the nuts. Check-raising and folding to a 3-bet is probably the right play here. You could've gotten to showdown for 1 bet, but it's better to sometimes not get to showdown for 2.

Buzz · #10 07-19-2007, 11:46 PM

Hand #1: Borys - You got out-played. Not your fault. His three-bet on the flop is a very fine play. He seems like a tough opponent.

[ QUOTE ]
His turn check doesnt make much sense cause the 9 isnt a scary card

[/ QUOTE ]Huh???
It makes complete sense to me.
You posted the big blind and thus could have a wider range than normal. And then you check/raised the flop! From Villain's perspective, the nine on the turn could fit perfectly into your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Does any of you bet out here on river (Villian has a tendency to showdown quite light) ??

[/ QUOTE ]I don't.

Hand #2: I think you have to bet this flop yourself if you play to continue. When you check/call, it's very difficult to know where you stand later in the hand.
[ QUOTE ]
Do you call

[/ QUOTE ]Very difficult decision. I don't know.

hand #3: You're out of position on all these hands. You make a nice move to try to get position, but again somebody behind you does you one better.

You miss a fit with the flop and decide not to bluff (maybe especially considering that Villain three-bet behind you before the flop). Seems reasonable. However, by checking you more or less give up on the hand. I don't have a solution for the dilemma. You're more or less trapped because of the situation, out of position with a mediocre starting hand you're already over-played, and then missing a good flop fit. These things considered, you did fine.

You have to wonder why Button checks the flop behind you, and suspect that maybe he has missed a fit or got counterfeited, but maybe has a back-up low draw. You maybe think you'll bet a favorable turn, or maybe simply any high card on the turn - but then the turn is a low card - and you only have one pair. You're more or less forced to check, and then Button again checks behind you.

But at this point, having checked twice, you can't really tell which end is up.

This time it's a combination of being our of position and having someone make a nice move behind you, missing on the flop, missing again on the turn, and finally missing again on the river.

However, you do end up with aces over sevens with a king kicker, which might win for high. But low is enabled and you have to suspect your opponent has low, and maybe a better high.

After all the checking, so that you can't tell where you stand, I don't see how you can value bet the river.

Buzz