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  #1  
Old 11-13-2006, 12:04 PM
Askilus Askilus is offline
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Default Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

Will this work for an intermediate skilled player like me, who tries to study the game of poker as well as I can. Or will it confuse me and make my head spin?

I like SNG's because of their "scientific" nature. Often there is a right or wrong, you can do the ICM, plug the hands into SNGPT and such things. I also like them because it is convinient to play opposed to large trnys that start at odd times of the day (for me, who lives in Europe). The stars SNG MTT's often does the trick here, however.

I like MTT's because I feel that there are a bit more "art" to it. You can have some style etc. And it's fun to go deep [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

There are a couple of pros as I can see it. Perhaps the biggest one is that SNG's learn me how to play proper bubble and FT play, and much of the edge I have in MTT's comes from these two situations. There are also some cons. The starting hands selection are a bit different (no biggie), and the thinking is a bit different. FE is as far as I've understood much more importent in SNG's for example.

If I decide to mix these two kinds of games, what advice do you have for me? What should I keep in the front of my mind, so that I don't get mixed up and play half decent SNG's and half decent MTT's.

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 11-13-2006, 12:08 PM
FortunaMaximus FortunaMaximus is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

[ QUOTE ]
If I decide to mix these two kinds of games, what advice do you have for me? What should I keep in the front of my mind, so that I don't get mixed up and play half decent SNG's and half decent MTT's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, good, until then I was getting my flame ready.

Seriously. STT's are a cash cow with a capped maximum on sustainable ROI. If you want to play both, quite a few players use STT profits to freeroll their MTT's or defray costs.

MTT's are a much longer time investment, but the overall sustainable ROI is higher, and in a good short-term, it can end up being a multiple of SNG ROI.

A good way not to get mixed up is to play your SNG's in sets, and play your MTT's (if you multitable) several at a time with the same consistent approach.

Short version: Just play good poker.
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  #3  
Old 11-13-2006, 06:10 PM
Askilus Askilus is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, good, until then I was getting my flame ready.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? Why flame? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously. STT's are a cash cow with a capped maximum on sustainable ROI. If you want to play both, quite a few players use STT profits to freeroll their MTT's or defray costs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nahh, I don't work that way. My main objective is to be +EV at all forms of poker I play. If I feel that I'm not +EV I don't want to play.

[ QUOTE ]
A good way not to get mixed up is to play your SNG's in sets, and play your MTT's (if you multitable) several at a time with the same consistent approach.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good tip. This is what I intend to do. Maybe keep a MTT going on the side of a STT set until I get a little deeper in the MTT and then focusing on that entierly.

[ QUOTE ]
Short version: Just play good poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any more practical tips more on the subject of game adjustments?
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  #4  
Old 11-13-2006, 06:14 PM
FortunaMaximus FortunaMaximus is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

Ramp up the aggression, raising less than 3BB and widen your starting standards slightly when antes come into play. If you feel there is a good spot for a resteal, take it.

Sometimes that approach's kinda like putting your balls in a vise and spinning the handle, but a top 3 makes up for a lot of post-bubble flameouts.

Don't change gears every orbit or two. Choose the gear for the hand and go with the table flow.
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  #5  
Old 11-13-2006, 07:23 PM
1st and 15 1st and 15 is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

[ QUOTE ]
Ramp up the aggression, raising less than 3BB and widen your starting standards slightly when antes come into play. If you feel there is a good spot for a resteal, take it.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, Fortuna you obviously know what the hell you are talking about in your posts so let me pick your brain here. I know conventional wisdom is to start raising less than 3BB once antes start a comin. I however, have always fundamentally disagreed with this. For me, once antes start coming into play I start raising a little more than 3xBB, ~3.25 apx. I play a high frequency steal style PF and this betting system has worked very well for me. My reasoning is that it cuts down pot odds and discourages calls. Convince me that I am wrong and conventional wisdom is correct.

Note - I always raise the same amount PF if it is an open raise. No exceptions.
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  #6  
Old 11-13-2006, 07:41 PM
AceLuby AceLuby is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

The reason I move down to 2.5xBB is:

a) costs us less on an AI resteal
b) represents a large portion of the stacks I'm stealing against (ie 15-25 bb avg stacks, ~10%)
c) still gives poor odds on a call
d) has to work less often to be profitable
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  #7  
Old 11-13-2006, 07:57 PM
FortunaMaximus FortunaMaximus is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

Antes, antes, antes.

The lower they are in relation to the blinds, the higher the frequency of your PF raises will have to be to account for the cumulative equity losses of .75BB/steal when you get played at with a tight range of hands.

The larger pots you create when your raises are called PF will eat into this net loss. But you cannot remove the fact you are risking nearly 33% more per openraise without increasing to an aggression level that may not be sustainable if the antes are not large enough. For purposes of aggression, you can sustain the same frequencies at 2.75BB and still gain the same amounts on your steals, while reducing the factor of variance by 0.5BB a hand. And if this is called, because of the antes, you are getting net gains out of every stack at the table, and in proportion to your stack, this is usually going to be a significant amount, especially if you c-bet.

Example for 100/200/a25: In MP2, you raise to 2.75BB, antes are .125BB/player, you get called, creating a 6.75BB pot. A reasonable c-bet, say 3/4 of the pot, which is another 4.5BB, creating a 11.25BB stack. Rarely does a situation occur in online poker where a 11BB stack is insignificant to an average stack or even a larger stack in a tournament.

With 3.25BB raises, you create a 7.75BB stack PF, which requires you to put in another ~5.25BB(+/- a slight margin), creating a 13BB stack.

If the average stack is 40BB at this point, the difference in ratio in pot sizes to stack after the c-bet jumps from slightly over a fourth to slightly under a third. When looked at from that point of view, it is a significant difference, and increases the frequency either Hero or Villain will put their tournament life at risk to contest this stack. The merits of which I am not debating in this discussion, as that's a different creature.

Aside: As for me knowing what I'm talking about, not necessarily. It just flows, and I'm a pattern recog savant. At least in this forum, there are more experienced people to point out my flaws as they come. Usually.
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  #8  
Old 11-13-2006, 08:08 PM
durkahdurkah durkahdurkah is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

I'm not sure exactly what kind of answer you are after here, but anyway, I'll just start typing and hopefully something useful/coherent will emerge.

You can definitely be successful playing both formats, they are just two different skill sets you need to practice and refine.

I think the most straightforward way to be a STT & MTT player is to use STTs to smooth variance that is going to come by being an MTT player (read: Fortuna's post). If you want to use STTs for more than this, then play more STTs than if you were just using them in the aforementioned way. Thats pretty much all there is to that point.

There are definitely skills that are common to both formats, and these are the skills that you will become the best at (early hand selection, pushbotting, short-handed short-stacked play). There are unique skill sets that you will lag behind in (restealing comes to mind here) because of format differences. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just the way it is.

A few points that I want to make:

1.
[ QUOTE ]
FE is as far as I've understood much more importent in SNG's for example.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much not the case. It may be slightly more important in STTs, but it's pretty damn important in MTTs too.

2. I don't think anyone who plays poker should play exclusively one format of poker, so it's good that you want to mix. There are always little tricks and skills that you can bring over that will improve your game.

3. If you are worried about mixing the games up and playing suboptimally in one or the other, simply play one format at a time. Play your STTs in blocks, then play MTTs for awhile. Don't mix unless you have an obvious advantage you need to negate (...).

4. Don't be afraid to mix some cash into these games too. These will help you out with your post-flop decision making, particularly in MTTs (not a whole lot of post-flop in STTs). Plus low limit cash is extremely profitable and can be used for much the same reasons as many use STTs: variance reduction.
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  #9  
Old 11-13-2006, 11:21 PM
cha59 cha59 is offline
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Default Re: Mixing MTT\'s and STT\'s?

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I move down to 2.5xBB is:

a) costs us less on an AI resteal
b) represents a large portion of the stacks I'm stealing against (ie 15-25 bb avg stacks, ~10%)
c) still gives poor odds on a call
d) has to work less often to be profitable

[/ QUOTE ]

e) often allows you to profitably c-bet while controling the pot size.

At certain blind/stack sizes, a normal 3x bet + a c-bet will effectively commit your whole stack. When you are fairly shallow stacked but pushing is not yet the best option, the 2.5x bet will allow you to make better c-bets more often.
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