High-end Dining: Expectations and Reviews

[JaBlue]

Last nice place I went to was trattoria acqua for Valentine's with my girlfriend. Meal cost $85 for us, $100 with tip, so ~50 each. Not fine dining like some of the places mentioned in this thread, but certainly pricy.

First thing I noticed was how [censored] the menu was. For a nice place like this it should be completely professional but the menus looked cheaper than the place and had some stupid quote like
"The goal should not be to die in a pretty, well-preserved, body but to go completely worn out, kicking and screaming with a chocolate martini in one hand..." Very lame.

Other than that the service was very good. There was the main waiter who had very fancy suspenders, several bus boys to take away our dishes and fill our water, and a dessert guy. Most people that ever served me.

For appetizers I ordered Lobster Bisque and she got Formagio al Formo: baked Brie cheese encased in phyllo dough, served with stone fruit and a honey-white truffle sauce. Hers was better than mine, which was very very good but I got her to try mine and she's a vegetarian (first time she ate any kind of meat in 15 years) which was exciting. She thought it was "very wierd but good."

For dinner she got Agnolotti con Funghi Porcini e Tartufo Nero - Wild mushroom & black truffle filled Agnolotti with a marsala and porcini mushroom cream sauce which is spectacular. There is a truffle in each ravioli type thing and it is knock-your-socks-off good.

I got Salmone con Gremolata : Oven roasted organic Scottish Salmon filet with a Gremolata topping of pinenuts, lemon zest and breadcrumbs served over Heirloom potatoes, organic tomatoes, black olives and a white wine reduction sauce

which was very good but the reduction sauce could be a bit overwhelming at times. The olives and tomatoes they used were very strong and the dish was good but the sauce was a little much all in all. The fish was awesome, of course.

For dessert we got a chocolate soufle just like a molten lava you can get just about anywhere, which was very good but not spectacular, and a lemon tart that was also very good but not spectacular and had a little too much torched whipped topping and not enough tart.

All in all a great meal and lots of fun, probably overpriced like all places down in La Jolla though.

[Six_of_One]

I couldn’t make it through a thread like this without contributing a review of my favorite restaurant, Urasawa. It’s a Japanese kaiseki-style place that also serves great sushi, located in Los Angeles (Beverly Hills, to be precise).

Visiting Urasawa is definitely a fine-dining experience, but different than most of the other places listed in this thread, I think. The sushi bar seats 10, and that’s it…just 10 (at the most) will be served each night.

I was there a week ago, and I didn’t write anything down, so I know I’ve forgotten some of the details of the dishes I was served…you’ll get the gist, though. The menu changes over time, but on any given day, you’re getting what he’s serving…you don’t get a choice (though if you have special requests or items you just can’t eat, he can accommodate you if you let him know in advance).

First – Goma-dofu (sesame tofu) with uni in the middle, topped with wasabi and gold leaf.

Second – This was a mixed platter of various small items, one bite each…I can’t remember them all, but I know it included sea cucumber roe (served in a carved slice of cucumber), smoked salmon (wrapped around something, but I can’t remember what), fish eggs, daikon radish, abalone in miso…1 or 2 other things too, I think.

Third – Sashimi platter. I got a plate with various kinds of sashimi, including red snapper, needlefish, giant clam, uni, Spanish mackerel, and toro (the best toro you’ll ever find). His standard is not quite as elaborate, usually 3 types of sashimi (always including toro), served on top of a bowl carved out of ice.

Fourth – Tuna tataki. This was thin slices of tuna, seared around the edges, served with some kind of topping (several ingredients were involved, but I’m not sure what they were…gold leaf was included, he likes to add that on top of things).

Fifth – A type of egg custard with uni and shrimp in the middle, topped by yuba skin and served warm…this one was fantastic, and not something I’d been served before (I’ve been maybe 10-12 times).

Sixth – There was a specific name for this, but I can’t remember it…basically, a little charcoal grill was placed in front of me, but instead of a metal grill, there was a large leaf being heated from beneath…on the leaf, there was a type of Japanese beef (not Kobe beef, but from somewhere else in Japan…apparently there are 400 different kinds of beef in Japan, and the chef is experimenting with different kinds), shrimp (which minutes earlier had been pulled live out of a tank in front of us and skewered), and shirako (cod sperm sac, which sounds gross, but is actually really good), all cooking in a miso sauce.

Seventh – Shabu-shabu, including more of that Japanese beef (great stuff), lobster (pulled live from a tank and chopped up, just like the shrimp), and foie gras (perhaps my favorite food on earth).

Then, it was time for the sushi. I’m going to try to list everything I had, though it’s quite possible I’m forgetting a couple things. His standard is to serve one piece of everything, but for me he sometimes serves 2 pieces (I ended up having 3 of the toro).

Toro, maguro, seared toro, red snapper, shima aji, kohada, mirugai, orange clam, abalone (he always has abalone that are just enormous, so much bigger than the ones you see at most sushi bars), shira ebi (a whole bunch of tiny shrimp pressed together), ama-ebi (pulled live out of the tank, and served with the brains poured over the top), saba (nothing like the sometimes too-fishy stuff you’ll find at most sushi bars, this is actually one of the more expensive items he serves), Japanese mackerel, squid, shiitake mushroom (cooked on a grill), needlefish, lobster (again, from living to my stomach in about a minute), uni, anago, a toro roll, Japanese beef (cooked lightly on the grill), tamago

I think that’s it. Yes, I eat a lot.

Finally, he serves two desserts:

First – Apple jelly served over pieces of dried persimmon (this was something new for me, I really liked it)

Second – Black sesame pudding (he serves sesame pudding a lot, sesame ice cream in the summer, and I always enjoy it)

Then you get a mug of some very strong, traditional green tea, followed by a cup of some other kind of roasted tea (not sure what it’s called).

Total cost -- $300 before drinks, tax, or tip. Standard is $250 per person, but I pay a little more because I typically eat more than the average customer (I think I get great value for the extra $50, because I had two pieces of about half the types of sushi listed above, plus my sashimi platter from early in the meal was bigger than everyone else’s).

Service has always been perfect…the atmosphere is very intimate, since even on a busy night he will only have 10 customers. He puts a ton of effort into the presentation of all his dishes, which makes it fun to watch for me, since he’s preparing everything right in front of me.

If you’re curious to see some pictures of the place, here is a link to someone else’s review of Urasawa (different menu, but a few of the same items, and a lot of the same sushi):
Urasawa Pictures

[citanul]

JA,

My apologies in advance for responding in cropping your post into little quotes fashion, I really don't like doing that in general.

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A recent thread about high-end dining got me thinking and I've realized that it pisses me off.

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I'm sorry for that, I didn't hope for this thread to piss anyone off, and I'm sorry that high-end dining pisses you off. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it seems like your opinion is colored by (perhaps several to many) bad experiences, or perhaps it's just not the scene for you. That's alright too.

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I have decided that I hate it. I hate the staff's attitude; I hate the patrons' attitudes more. ... I don't care to be "in the know" or to fuel my Patrick Bateman-like desire to be seen.

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As others have commented, if the staff has an attitude, that's a bad thing. I've only incredibly rarely had even a single staff member have any sort of attitude at all. In general I've found the staff to be attentive to detail, but exactly as "intrusive" or "educational" as you want them to be, and no more. If and when they do things like you mention later where they say "excuse my reach," every time they pour water past you, they're just conforming to that particular restaurant's etiquette code. I agree that that particular level is a bit silly to me, but I can see spots where it would make sense. (It's certainly better to be too polite than to offend a customer who is paying this kind of money for food.)

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The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places.

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I really, really don't think this is true. While "good" food might be available down the street, I don't think that there's anything comparable to most "great" restaurants (ignoring pure outliers) at significantly lower price points at humbler places. If you look at places like Bouli, alinea, etc (those being the more experimental restaurants), there just aren't low price point places for that kind of food. Or at least not that aren't disgusting. The processes that produce good "high tech" or whatever food are expensive, time consuming, and require great ingredients to work well. The food that we're calling "best in class" or whatever in this thread is similar. While there might be a good French food at a bunch of places, someplace might arguably serve the best French food in the world/country/city. It would be understandable if they charged a bit more for their food and classed up their service.

But as others have said in this thread, when most people go to a high-end place, you're not just paying for the food. You're paying for the experience, the memory, the whole evening. Everything should be great. If everything isn't great for you, something's gone wrong.


[ QUOTE ]
The someliers usually recommend worse wines than I can come up with on my own.

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That's very odd indeed. I don't think there's anything more I can say than that. I'm just surprised that you've gone to restaurants employing some of the top wine experts in the world and consistently found your taste in wine and wine matching to be superior to theirs, especially considering that you have a phD in something that has nothing to do with vineculture, and they have spent years studying wine.

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Almost without exception, I don't want to talk to the wait-staff. I'd rather talk to my friends/date for dinner. You know, the people who I WANTED to eat with. I want to be loud and tell good stories. I don't want 15 people trying to nose their way into my conversation via trying to fill my water glass. I do not equate attention with good service.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, while many of these places don't expect you to be "loud," I'm shocked that you've had several occasions where they are butting in to your conversations, interrupting you, and not letting your evening go as you would like. In my experience this is where the best servers excel. Knowing when is a good time to bring the next dish, when is a good time to interrupt briefly, and how to unobtrusively refill a glass of wine has been the hallmark of the service I've received at great restaurants.

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All of these factors and more have made me realize that I just don't enjoy these restaurants as much as I should. I have no objections to paying good money for a great meal, but I don't want to pay great money for a good meal, and the fact of the matter is that most of the time the food just isn't as good as it is many other places, most of which are just kind of neighborhood-type of places.

[/ QUOTE ]

JA, I hope you give high-end dining another try. Maybe let El D pick. But it is understandable that someone might not enjoy the jacket-required, 6 waiters to a table, decibel limited nature of these places.

A good, but not great, discussion I think could be started in the nature of this:

Lotus of Siam, LV, is frequently cited as one of the best, if not the best, Thai food in the country. (I ate there last year during the WSOP, and honestly, the food was amazing. Way better than my local "great" Thai place, and Chicago is a city of Thai food.) The menu is inexpensive, to say the least, but service (though good) and ambience are both more in the nature of someplace you go for $10 Thai food than anything else. Aruns, Chicago, is also cited as one of the best, if not the best, Thai food in the country. It's about $85 a head. One explores what's great Thai food: the best that you can do with the dishes that Americans all know, the other explores rarer dishes, rarer ingredients, greater variety - still will server you the staples, just will kick them up one more notch.

I'm not saying that people who crave finding the local place with the killer handmade ravioli, or the great beer steamed mussels, or the best sandwich ever, or whatever, is not a worthwhile pursuit (or one that I don't engage in), I'm just saying that there is a niche for these places outside of just wanting to be seen or make an impression on someone or ridiculously spend money. I think that when you don't get unlucky, you can enjoy your food, your company, and be treated with the best service you can find anywhere, all while knowing that this is an experience that is rare and special in that it couldn't happen just the same way at some random other restaurant.

I guess that I don't agree that there's an attitude that goes along with these places. Aside from having to don the monkey suit, I've basically never had a problem with feeling uncomfortable or like my party wasn't wanted in one of the great restaurants.

[NT!]

Generally speaking:

I am not a food snob. I worked in low and mid-range restaurants for a long while and have eaten a ton of food from those kitchens - happily. I have a lot of friends who work in upper-mid range or fine dining type places, and I really enjoy going out and blowing a bunch of money on a fabulous dining experience. But ultimately I will be way happier going to a mid-range place where I know what I'm getting and get treated well than I would going to a crowded, snobby fine dining place full of obnoxious people where I will get sub-par or even merely average treatment. Being treated well is hugely important to me. So is a good atmosphere - I absolutely HATE HATE HATE being too close to other tables or being in really loud rooms.

I'm a very friendly, polite customer who is easy to please, so I usually get treated great. I find that when I don't, it's usually because the staff has some notion that I will be ignorant, cheap or unappreciative and they decide right off the bat to spend their effort on someone who looks wealthier. If I am treated this way at a restaurant I will never, ever go back. Old male waiters are usually the worst about this.

Not surprisingly I have pretty much been miserable since moving to NYC since there are no mid-range restaurants where everyone knows my name and treats me great, everything is crowded and loud and full of irritating people and most places are ridiculously overpriced.

Will post a few restaurant reviews later on, don't want this post to get too lengthy.

NT

[Aloysius]

[ QUOTE ]

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The food looks fantastic and may taste pretty good, but equally wonderful food is always available at more humble places.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really, really don't think this is true. While "good" food might be available down the street, I don't think that there's anything comparable to most "great" restaurants (ignoring pure outliers) at significantly lower price points at humbler places.

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This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

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Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

[Kneel B4 Zod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This quoted portion of your response is just way off. It is especially untrue outside of the U.S., imo (Paris is the city I think of first).

-Al

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

I was unclear in the message last night: That portion was supposed to be specifically talking about the high-tech sort of food. Anyway, I don't believe that it's true in Paris either. Just because in Paris there is good food to be had, I don't think that a midrange place in Paris serving good French food would say that it compares its food well to the best French food in the world. I've had a lot of great meals for not much money in Paris, but none of those compare well to the best French restaurants I've eaten in in the US.

c

[/ QUOTE ]

well, the most expensive French food in Paris is going to cost just as much as in the US, or more. The tasting menu at Guy Savoy is about $300 without wine. Is this better than a tasting menu that costs $100? I bet it is, but I think the curve is nowhere near linear.

Meaning, I doubt Guy Savoy is 3 times as good, however one would define 3 times as good. I think a lot of what you are paying for is the name of the place, and the ambience, and the service, etc. Just the food, which I think Sucker was referring to, is probably not 'better enough' to justify the price.

I think this is true for all kinds of ultra-luxury items. You are often not going to get good value at the top of the food chain. (pun intended [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[MrMon]

I meant to make this point eariler, but the curve is definitely NOT linear. It never is when you approach the top of something, for the simple reason that the cost to make it better isn't linear either. And there's the scarcity factor. Is a $100 bottle of wine 10x better than a $10 one? No, of course not. Is a $15 million pitcher 100x better than a $150K rookie? Probably not. But those higher priced items are much rarer than the cheaper ones, and if you want quality over quantity, you have to pay. It's not always worth it, but sometimes it is, just to experience the best there is.

[turnipmonster]

when you say mid-range, what sort of price range are you talking? I have long thought that nyc is a great city for midrange restaurants, entrees are in the 9-20 price range for many of my favorite places. in fact, I am often shocked at entree prices when I go back home to NC, because I am used to getting the same quality food in nyc at much lower prices.

[Pudge714]

Last night I went to Harbour 60 in Toronto with Eagles and our parents.

Appetizers
Seared Ahi Tuna
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pepper crusted Ahi tuna with sesame, soya, daikon salad and wasabi.

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This was really good. Really tender, I usually don't like Tuna, but this was really good, I loved the pepper and sesame.

Pan Seared Foie Gras
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ripe mango and ice wine reduction

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Like most foie gras this was excellent. Very tender and nice fruit salad on the side. Eagles and I needed to fight over the last bit. My only complaint was that we weren't given enough toast, but the wait staff gave us more toast very quickly when we asked for more.

Shrimp Cocktail
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jumbo white Gulf shrimp with a house tomato chili sauce

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As I said earlier I don't eat shellfish, but my parents and Eagles seemed to really enjoy the shrimp.
No pictures of the shrimp on the website.

Flash Fried Calamari
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tossed with garlic, red cherry peppers and capers

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I always enjoy calamari, they aren't that heavily breaded and there was chipotle mayo on the side. All the appetizers were very good and I wouldn't consider reordering if given another opportunity.No pitcures of the calamari on the website.

Entrees
Harbour Sixty Bone-in Rib Steak
Quite simply the best steak I have ever had and that includes several of the top steakhouses in Toronto, New York, LA and Vegas. As usual it was delicious and three of us got it. I can't properly explain it's awesomeness without tasting it, right now I'm literally salivating and my stomach now feels incredibly empty. I'm really upset the picture doesn't show the inside of the steak.


Long Bone Lamb Chops
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Colorado chops on a crisp potato pancake

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My mom got this and I tried some. The chops were great cripsy on the outside tender on the inside. My mom felt they were a little too fatty, but I really like them. The potato pancake was okay, but I expected it be better it didn't meet the expectations of the rest of the meal.

Sides
Mashed Potatoes
Good creamy mashed potatoes, a really big portion we couldn't finish it.

French Fries
Thin cut fries, lightly salted, really good, really crispy.

Sauteed Broccolini
A little too garlicky for my liking. Again a very big portion and he couldn't finish it.

No desert because we were too full.