JJ in interesting capped pot situation against 2+2er....

[Smurph64]

I am glad someone addressed the 2+2 angle here. It was important for this hand because, then Hero knew he had fold equity.

Hero bet the turn and 2+2er called. River came a blank and Hero bet it. 2+2er folded.

So I have to wonder, what mistakes do you think the 2+2er made here if any?

[marchron]

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You should look up "non sequitur" and add it to your vocabulary.

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I found it right next to "ass sphincter".

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what kind of broken-ass dictionary did you use?

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Seriously.

[Aaron W.]

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So I have to wonder, what mistakes do you think the 2+2er made here if any?

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It's not really a "mistake", but he didn't have a good read on hero's ability to misplay/overplay his hand.

[bellatrix]

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BB is known 2+2 player

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This fact is meaningless.

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Preflop: 2+2er is BB CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, 2+2er caps, UTG calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img](4 players)
2+2er bets, UTG folds, Hero ....

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...folds immediately. Your odds are not as good as they seem, and they seem pretty piss poor. Chasing these draws because of the current immediate odds is bad chasing. Welcome to reverse implied odds.

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QueBob: You are playing your cards only. Play your opponents ranges more!

To OP:
I had a real hard time with this hand and I think OP played it very well. I would've probably done the wrong thing and folded the c/f the turn.
still have to learn...

[Smurph64]

I have to ask you Aaron does Ed Miller's statement about folding too much apply here?

Its a pretty big pot here to fold for one bet even if you know you are beat, which in this case wasn't true.

At what numbers do you make a crying call?

Personally, I think this is a mub hand. There was nothing to indicate that the range of the Hero didn't include JJ in that situation and his raise for whatever reason was a thin mistake at best. I think he should have overplayed his QQ holdings in that situation and found out if his pocket pairs were in fact beaten.

I think the 2+2 going passive on the flop was a big mistake myself and essentially he talked himself out of the hand.

I remember some hands long ago, where I had KK vs. Ace on the flop with two callers who donk and call the flop in front of me and I tossed it.

I was told, rightly so, that I was making a mistake there. I am not sure what the difference is between this situation and that one.

When the ace came if it gets reraised you still have odds to draw.

I think its important to realize that at these levels people make retarded raises early in attempts to steal pots.

Its really tough to figure out if there is a lesson here or not.

What I think I learnt from this hand is that in large preflop hands, I need a little more experience to know how to play postflop and not outthink myself.

[Aaron W.]

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I have to ask you Aaron does Ed Miller's statement about folding too much apply here?

Its a pretty big pot here to fold for one bet even if you know you are beat, which in this case wasn't true.

At what numbers do you make a crying call?

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The number varies with the aggression level of the villain and the way the hand played out. There's no single value that you would say "this is an autocall."

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Personally, I think this is a mub hand. There was nothing to indicate that the range of the Hero didn't include JJ in that situation and his raise for whatever reason was a thin mistake at best. I think he should have overplayed his QQ holdings in that situation and found out if his pocket pairs were in fact beaten.

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Nothing to indicate that the range didn't include JJ? You 3-bet preflop and he coldcapped you from BB. Then you raised him on a K-high flop.

You're advising a game a chicken in the middle of your poker game. QQ has no value in continuing to push the envelope even if he puts you on a range that includes medium pairs down to 77 or so. If he put you on such a hand range, then his best play is to call down.

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I think the 2+2 going passive on the flop was a big mistake myself and essentially he talked himself out of the hand.

I remember some hands long ago, where I had KK vs. Ace on the flop with two callers who donk and call the flop in front of me and I tossed it.

I was told, rightly so, that I was making a mistake there. I am not sure what the difference is between this situation and that one.

When the ace came if it gets reraised you still have odds to draw.

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Context matters and you're being results-oriented. Notice that all the advice here was to peel one on the flop because you were behind. If you were 3-bet and had called the flop 3-bet, chased your flush on the turn, and folded the river, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We would be talking about your terrible flop raise.

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I think its important to realize that at these levels people make retarded raises early in attempts to steal pots.

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You mean like your raise here? Reads matter.

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Its really tough to figure out if there is a lesson here or not.

What I think I learnt from this hand is that in large preflop hands, I need a little more experience to know how to play postflop and not outthink myself.

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The lesson learned is that it's possible to bluff players who are capable of folding.

[tyler_cracker]

smurph,

i'm amazed (nearly awed) that you've been hanging around the boards for this long (your previous stint + modern times) and you still think the way to win at poker is to make your opponents fold.

[Smurph64]

The bet/fold line is confusing to me still. This example isn't an example of a hand I actually played as the Hero. I know the 2+2er had QQ with the diamond.

I posted from the DA perspective to make sure the action given was correct.

I run into a lot of situations now playing 6 max where I know I am being bluffed more than I ever was full ring. I am, for the longest time, not thinking about getting opponents to fold to win.

I have done a lot better since too. Nevertheless I wonder when thinking too much causes problems and if TAG's consistently take shots at me in the 6 max scenario is a hole I can close.

I started running into real opponents again finally and so just want to put the check list into the proper priority. When the hands are moving so frigging fast and someone shows me a bluff like this, I am not sure what lesson I should learn from it.

I know why they show me the bluff. Generally I bail as I am not sure if I am now going to make thinking mistakes and there are better tables to play against than one where I know the opponent is inside my head.

Nevertheless as I move up I imagine this kind of thing is going to happen more often and so it helps getting used to breaking down a hand properly when in complex situations by discussing it with you guys.

When the hand was discussed from the perspective of QQ I didn't get the answers completely. So I thought it would be a good thing to speculate on the action seen and see if there were logic holes there as well.

Clearly there were. This was a good lesson for me here and I appreciate all the input on this.

KISS works here even in complex situations. I wasn't sure.

[Bulletproof Monk]

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I know the 2+2er had QQ with the diamond.

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it tells us that he at least thinks about how to overthink hands and make fancy folds with 100% equity but that will make him feel proud of later.

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