This website and why I love [censored]

[Mat Sklansky]

Most or all of the following was in a pm I sent to Microbob, with some addition. Ryan and [censored] agreed that it should be posted here.

[censored] has always done what I ask. Aside from Astroglide, he's the only moderator who has ever been able to effectively control oot, and keep in mind he chose Astroglide, and Astroglide left because he was not ok with having one of his decisions overturned. On the other hand, I have quietly overturned some of [censored]'s decisions with no fallout.

Any decision Mason makes in terms of "cleaning up oot" will only make the enforcement of those rules harder. And again the only moderator I know here tough enough to enforce these standards is [censored]. Before [censored], every attempt I made to keep that forum under control by myself and with other combinations of moderators failed and made me want to shut the place down.

Considering that I feel oot is important to the overall community here, that makes [censored] the most important moderator I have.

Jim Kuhn and Mike Haven do an excellent job of handling the second toughest forum on the site. However, when Jim (or others, etc.) say [censored] should go, they're coming from a limited perspective. And they are wrong. Even though people, including Mason and Ed are loathe to admit it, the newest and biggest customer base we have is comprised of men younger than 25, and what that implies. Getting that base to the forums and interested in poker through our non-gambling doors is good for the whole company. I really believe it is.

I'm 36, but I remember how I was ten plus years ago. A sanitized, civil OOT would have been less than appealing. So as I said, I'm not strongly opposed to some stricter requirements placed on the other topic forums, but such requirements make the need for a personality like [censored]'s more necessary, not less.

You're a nice guy (microbob and others). Everyone knows you're a nice guy. I'm a nice guy too. But I've come to accept that most people aren't very nice. I think most poker players aren't very nice, and I think that young men with an interest in poker are amongst the least nicest people in this country. At least in terms of how they wish to communicate with one another.

Long before these forums exploded, I gave up on trying to get people to behave as human beings. I quickly discovered that any attempts to change this led to threads like the one you tried to begin (in ATF), addressing insults. Now there are people who take this too far, and in those cases I would ban them.But as you can see from El Diablo's remarks (and he's ridiculously well-liked and respected in virtually every forum) our attempts to force civil discourse simply make things worse.

The only way to keep people under control around here, in my experience, is to make absolute demands and to stick with them. People are [censored]. They really are. Especially on the internet. Even the nice ones. Nobody. No moderator. Not me. Not Mason. Not you. Nobody is going to change this fundamental fact.

Ed and Elaine are young idealists who can't accept this. I don't blame them. But I believe your complaints about this forum are like theirs: dismay over the way people are willing to behave towards one another. That's how I see it. Elaine isn't really concerned so much with how the forums are policed, I don't think. I think she's horrified by the fact that people and the people who find and like oot even exist. And I admit that it's sad.

So if you think I have a point here, ask yourself if your concern is really the unkind words flashing on the computer screen, or if it's really a deeper disappointment. The disappointment that people are really just vulgar animals who can be controlled to some extent (and if you choose to remain a moderator, I will help you get and maintain that control and be open to policy changes acheiving that), but can never really be changed.

This is what you need to ask yourself. And if you think I've misread your feelings, don't hesitate to tell me. If your feelings don't stem from this deeper sense of disatisfaction with your fellow humans and you really are interested in forcing more civil behavior on the masses here at these forums, and you really feel that it would be worth your efforts to try and force such changes, then I'll keep on working with you to achieve that goal. But if such a goal is achievable, I need people like you to help me put the measures in place. Just complaining doesn't help. Making posts asking people to be more kind, doesn't help.

So think about this stuff and get back to me. And whatever happens, I think you can tell by the length of this message, that I do care. And the funny thing is, despite what so many think, so does [censored].

[diebitter]

FWIW, I never had a problem with [censored] before this round of cullings. I still don’t particularly, and he will confirm this, I’m sure.

But any sort of mod-led persecution of posters via survivor, cullings or whatever mustn’t happen again. It’s corrosive in the extreme and actively encourages and celebrates the juvenile nonsense that have brought the site to this point – and the reason I chose self-exile from OOT once I realised it was serious, is based entirely on wishing to be no part in it in any way. I said in a previous post in the mod forum pretty much after leaving OOT that it will only get worse – I didn’t foresee how much worse though.

Stop the contests now and forever, seems reasonable to me.

[Jurollo]

Mat,
As a 23 year old male I am well within your demographic, however, I disagree with some of your assertions about OOT. I have made amends with [censored] via PM and am ok with him staying on as moderator, however, I think the thing OOT needs is consistancy. Simply banning people for a post you think is stupid while letting other similar posts stay creates the very environment that everyone is worried about. Rather than banning people for "FYP"s or the like ban people who post vulgar and inappropriate topics and those will eventually stop as well. If you lose some degenerates then it shouldn't be that big a deal for the bottom line for 2+2. All I have ever asked for is some consistency and the end of the veyr "ticky tack" bannings from him, thats all I ask, I rarely disagree over a banning with him because a lot of the people he KO's deserve it, but instead of just banning people blindly at will do a quick check for post history and comment history and if they post a lot in strat simply send out a PM telling them they are exiled rather than banning them, which can sometimes go unnoticed and all the sudden a strat forum loses a contributor. So all in all...

-I am ok with [censored] for now
-Just be more consistant and start cleaning up vulgarity rather than what you deem to be "lame"
-Check posting history, in obvious cases give someone the benefit of the doubt

~Justin

[Jim Kuhn]

Mat,

I respectfully disagree with your opinions on censored. I think by not applying the rules fairly to all posters he brings most of his troubles onto himself in oot. He picks and chooses what constitutes a bad poll, post or poster. There is absolutely no consistency. He lets the forums 'get dirty' and then rushes in 'to save the day'. He is a total drama king! Why does he need to 'clean up the forum'? Why not enforce the rules on a daily basis rather than need a 'mass culling'? Why not send out warning pm's to offenders?

The way he treats other mods should not be tolerated. He repeatedly cuts down mods in the public forums and tries to persuade posters to dislike the 2+2 mods. He attempts to turn the customers away from the employees. This causes us to work in a hostile environment and causes 2+2 to lose credibility. This would not be tolerated in a normal workplace and should not be tolerated here. Add to this the fact we are volunteers and you can see why mods are considering quitting.

He acts like a juvenile and entices others to also act like juveniles. Look at the oot sticky. Does anyone really think the following portrays the professional and positive image 2+2 is trying to uphold: 'Look here are the rules, don't be a [censored] moron, don't start threads because you're bored , don't piss me the [censored] off by acting like a goddamned moron thinking you're funny.' I am very surprised this sticky has remained for so long. Does anyone think this helps 2+2 portray a professional image? If I was a new poster this sticky sure would not make me feel better about 2+2 strategies and books.

I have posted and lurked here since 1997. I think that 2+2 has lost general credibility in that time rather than gained it. I understand that many of our core posters are juveniles or college kids. These posters can, however, be brought into the real world and forced to act like adults and treat others with respect. In a way I think this would allow us to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem. This is JMHO

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Mat Sklansky]

"If I was a new poster this sticky sure would not make me feel better about 2+2 strategies and books."

How could the sticky in oot, a non-strategy forum, which attracts people who are drawn to it's circus-like atmosphere and come to the site for that purpose, turn people off to the books and strategy forums they had no interest in in the first place?

Now I'll agree that [censored] needs to cool it with the other moderators, and while I know he tries to conscious of who the strategy posters are, perhaps more effort needs to be put there when he bans, rather than exiles.

OOT is not like the other forums. Trying to make it such, will destroy it, in my opinion. Trying to bring people into "the real world" doesn't need to start in OOT, and I think it's unrealistic to believe that. I also think that saying 2+2 has lost credibility since 1997 is insane.

I think Mason sold 10,000 books or so in 1997. Last year he sold 400,000.

There is room for improvement, but those calling for [censored]'s head are asking essentially for the most popular forum on these boards to be destroyed. That decision remains Mason's, but I sure don't want to see it happen.

[Jim Kuhn]

[ QUOTE ]

"If I was a new poster this sticky sure would not make me feel better about 2+2 strategies and books."
How could the sticky in oot, a non-strategy forum, which attracts people who are drawn to it's circus-like atmosphere and come to the site for that purpose, turn people off to the books and strategy forums they had no interest in in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

2+2 is and probably always will be a 'Poker Forum'. I don't think many people come here for just for OOT. It may become a primary interest for some but poker is the reason they were drawn here. I think you greatly overestimate censored's impact on OOT and especially 2+2 as a whole. He tries to stir up trouble and controversy!

Sorry I greatly misstated the losing credibility sentence. I meant I think 2+2 has lost credibility in the last year and much of it as a result of OOT and censored's modding. I don't think OOT should be removed but I think it should be modded in a more consistent manner. This includes adding a prefessional looking sticky for the posters.

There is not doubt the 2+2 books are the best in the poker industry. I think everyone would have to agree the increase in sales can be attributed to the poker boom and not the increase in the quality of the books. The books qualities have always been first rate.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4u
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]

[censored] has always done what I ask. Aside from Astroglide, he's the only moderator who has ever been able to effectively control oot


[/ QUOTE ]

I feel this is a tad unfair. Astro was not around for long periods back then, and I modded fine with some behind the scenes from you, Cola and Dynasty. It least I thought so [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

The faq was clear and stuck to, for example.


Still, not digging at censored here, just making sure the history book gets the facts straight [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Grunch]

Let me preface this by saying that I have respect for [censored] and his modding style of OOT. I'm not calling for his head. Through my limited conversations with him and what I have observed, he appears to me to be level-headed and well-intentioned.

My contention has always been, and remains to be, the true value of OOT itself.

I can't help but to observe how these statements appear to me to be directly contradictory of each other (emphasis mine):

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Kuhn and Mike Haven do an excellent job of handling the second toughest forum on the site. However, when Jim (or others, etc.) say [censored] should go, they're coming from a limited perspective. And they are wrong. Even though people, including Mason and Ed are loathe to admit it, the newest and biggest customer base we have is comprised of men younger than 25, and what that implies. Getting that base to the forums and interested in poker through our non-gambling doors is good for the whole company. I really believe it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and...

[ QUOTE ]
How could the sticky in oot, a non-strategy forum, which attracts people who are drawn to it's circus-like atmosphere and come to the site for that purpose, turn people off to the books and strategy forums they had no interest in in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]

If these new posters who came to OOT for the porn & circus of OOT only and have no interest in poker or gambling, what in OOT is going to bring them in to the gambling world & start buying books & becoming productive members of the strat forums?

Maybe somebody else can, but I cannot recall of a single poster in SSNL who came to 2p2 solely for the porn & circus and then became a poker player.

Quite to the contrary, I can think of many posters -- in many cases, very high-profile posters -- who went the other way. They came to 2p2 for the poker, contributed a ton & were a huge asset to the strat forums, made a bunch of money, and then stopped posting strat advice & went to OOT instead. There they contribute to the drama by stirring the pot, sucking in other valued strat posters.

[FeliciaLee]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a nice guy too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rats! Any hopes I had for us are now gone! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I have no problem with you. I have no problem with Jeremy. I like pretty much everyone here, the nuttier they are, the more I like them.

I like Ed, too, although we are as different as night and day. I'm sorry to see him take a step away, but I completely understand it. For years, I had to get away from the HE strat forums. I still can't go back. I get too worked up over a game I don't even like.

Mat, you are too cool.

People will always whine and complain about the direction 2+2 is taking this week. Four years ago they were saying the same thing. I just blow it off, they can bite me. I've been hearing the same old song and dance forever. No matter how successful 2+2 is, there will always be the same whining group lamenting, "These forums are going downhill!" Go take a hike if you don't like it, I say.

You guys are doing a great job. That is all.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[jason_t]

I think that you're letting the enjoyment you get from the drama that [censored] creates bias your opinion of him as a moderator. It's possible to effectively moderate OOT without stirring up trouble and being a c[/i]unt. But if you want a total misanthrope to continue to degrade this website, so be it; I've said my piece.