Black market schools

[FooSH]

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Who is imposing what on who now? Parents and employers can choose to ignore the results and make any criteria they want for a prospective school or employee.

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NOT requiring something is not an imposition. I am not imposing anything on you if I do not require you to take a test. I am imposing on you if I do.

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What test are the parents and employers taking again? Please review the quotes you have removed.

[Misfire]

Copernicus is also ignoring that the actuarial test, even if it was standardized, is not given across such a large population as the ACT or SAT is. As I showed earlier, this would make it much more difficult to produce without sacrificing any objectivity it may have. To use it to generalize about standardized tests as a whole, especially as a tool for rating overall educational quality among high-schoolers, is quite a leap.

[Misfire]

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Who is imposing what on who now? Parents and employers can choose to ignore the results and make any criteria they want for a prospective school or employee.

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NOT requiring something is not an imposition. I am not imposing anything on you if I do not require you to take a test. I am imposing on you if I do.

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What test are the parents and employers taking again? Please review the quotes you have removed.

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Please review what you quoted. Did I say parents and employers were taking a test? No, I didn't. I used that as an example of an imposition. Removing an imposition (for instance, that of requiring a test, requiring payment for a public school, or requiring you to bow to Mecca every day) is not the same as imposing something new.

[Copernicus]

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Interesting that you should raise actuaries though. Actuaries take a series of ten standardized tests.

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I am an actuary which is why I picked that profession. <font color="blue">so am I </font>

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Ability to pass those tests is an extremely signficant predictor of success as a consulting actuary, a profession that requires a very broad base of knowledge and abilities. Thus it is clear that standardized tests CAN be designed that indicate educational aptitude accomplishment or both.

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Ah, but there is the rub. They're not really standardized tests. They're specialized tests designed by actuaries to filter out anyone that doesn't meet the actuarial profession's concept of "actuarial". Of course they are a "successful" predictor of success when you measure success as being "actuarial" in the same way the tests are designed to pass "actuarial" people. <font color="blue"> That is a nit over what "standardized" means. SAT/ACT are "specialized tests to determine likelihood of success" would be an equally valid characterization. I agree the purposes are different, but that doesnt preclude the ability to design a "standardized" test that is an even better predictor of college success </font> People write the exams voluntarily to gain access to the actuaries' club under the actuaries' club rules. <font color="blue">People write SATs voluntarily to gain access to the college of their choice under the college's admission policies. </font> If they think the rules are stupid, they don't write the exams. No such freedom is afforded to public school entrants. <font color="blue">You can attempt to gain admission to a college without taking SATs. </font> They must pay and attend or pay and not attend. The case of actuarial exams is an example of how private education works, not support for public education!

[/ QUOTE ]My discussion of exams followed from but is not restricted to a comparison of private and public education. The claims were that existing exams are not good predictors no matter where you attended school, and that it is impossible to design more effective ones. Both claims are patently false. <font color="blue"> </font>

[Copernicus]

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Copernicus is also ignoring that the actuarial test, even if it was standardized, is not given across such a large population as the ACT or SAT is. As I showed earlier, this would make it much more difficult to produce without sacrificing any objectivity it may have. To use it to generalize about standardized tests as a whole, especially as a tool for rating overall educational quality among high-schoolers, is quite a leap.

[/ QUOTE ] It isn't a perfect analogy, I agree, but they are standardized tests and they have been successful at defeating strategies that you implied taint all standardized tests. Passing an actuarial exam is extremely valuable, with a present value of something on the order of $15,000 PER EXAM, and probably a few thousand takers per sitting for the early exams. There are businesses built around study aids and classes to pass them. If there were easier strategies to pass them than actually learning the material because of a problem inherent to standardized tests, there would be huge financial gain from teaching them. Same for the CPA exams and bar exams.

[Copernicus]

And btw, I would appreciate an apology for your claim that I switched the claims I was making, or substantiation that I did. Somehow youve managed to avoid that part of my post. surprise surprse surprise

[mosdef]

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If there were easier strategies to pass them than actually learning the material because of a problem inherent to standardized tests, there would be huge financial gain from teaching them.

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When's the last time you wrote an actuarial exam? I assure you, the modern guides and courses are geared towards "passing strategies", not understanding the material.

[Copernicus]

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If there were easier strategies to pass them than actually learning the material because of a problem inherent to standardized tests, there would be huge financial gain from teaching them.

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When's the last time you wrote an actuarial exam? I assure you, the modern guides and courses are geared towards "passing strategies", not understanding the material.

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Many years, thank goodness. However I teach courses on exams regularly and review the study materials available. I don't think the techniques taught on how to approach problems, eg testing multiple choice answers to mathematical questions at 0 and infinity before trying to directly solve the problem, rise to the level that misfire is talking about. I agree those techniques can improve scores marginally without a commensurate increase in knowledge, but that could be avoided by problem design.

[Misfire]

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The claims were that existing exams are not good predictors no matter where you attended school, and that it is impossible to design more effective ones. Both claims are patently false. <font color="blue"> </font>

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You said yourself that oxford sweaters could be good predictors, so the predictor argument is just silly. (You also avoided comment on my post about race because you know it destroys your argument).

Second, you're trying to put words in my mouth substituting "virtually impossible" with "impossible." Why don't you address my actual arguments?

[Copernicus]

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The claims were that existing exams are not good predictors no matter where you attended school, and that it is impossible to design more effective ones. Both claims are patently false. <font color="blue"> </font>

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You said yourself that oxford sweaters could be good predictors,<font color="red">NO I DIDNT.This is the second time youve made that claim and the second time Ive denied it. Read what I said and then stfu about it. </font> so the predictor argument is just silly. (You also avoided comment on my post about race because you know it destroys your argument). <font color="red">I didnt comment on your FYP about race because as a purely logical argument (it was in the context of truth tables after all) it probably is consistent, though I havent given it that much thought. Either way it doesnt destroy any argument Ive made. </font>

Second, you're trying to put words in my mouth substituting "virtually impossible" with "impossible." Why don't you address my actual arguments?

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If I mischaracterized your position from "virtually impossible" to "impossible" I apologize, but also disagree that is even particularly difficult, much less viruatlly impossible.