Is This Cheating?

[emerson]

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I can't believe there are so many people who don't think this is cheating. The level or moral development is so low amongst the people posting on this forum that it makes me glad to be playing against such--for lack of a better word--stupid people, but at the same time it worries me. Ask yourself: could these actions be willed to everyone at the table? (i.e. what if everyone at the table saw everyone's cards through his/her glasses?) Then it wouldn't be poker.

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There is absolutely no way to disregard information to which you have been exposed. Your judgement has been biased as soon as you are exposed. You can't place yourself at a disadvantage to avoid taking advantage.

If you feel bad, inform the player after the hand that he is giving away information and that he should be careful about it.

[Tony Guoga]

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I can't believe there are so many people who don't think this is cheating. The level or moral development is so low amongst the people posting on this forum that it makes me glad to be playing against such--for lack of a better word--stupid people, but at the same time it worries me. Ask yourself: could these actions be willed to everyone at the table? (i.e. what if everyone at the table saw everyone's cards through his/her glasses?) Then it wouldn't be poker.

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There is absolutely no way to disregard information to which you have been exposed. Your judgement has been biased as soon as you are exposed. You can't place yourself at a disadvantage to avoid taking advantage.

If you feel bad, inform the player after the hand that he is giving away information and that he should be careful about it.

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I don't understand what you are trying to say. Of course you can't disregard something to which you have been exposed, but I'm not saying it's cheating to see the reflection in his glasses (because you can't help it). It would be immoral not to say something to him, keeping your mouth shut and using the information against him.

[Tony Guoga]

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I can't believe there are so many people who don't think this is cheating. The level or moral development is so low amongst the people posting on this forum that it makes me glad to be playing against such--for lack of a better word--stupid people, but at the same time it worries me. Ask yourself: could these actions be willed to everyone at the table? (i.e. what if everyone at the table saw everyone's cards through his/her glasses?) Then it wouldn't be poker.

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i like the immanuel kant logic of right and wrong. ask yourself this question:

is it wrong to drive through red lights and stop at green lights?

what if everybody on the road was to do this?

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I'm impressed with your cleverness, but your getting something wrong. The 'immorality' with going through a red light is driving through the intersection when it's not your turn. If everyone were to go when it isn't his/her turn, then it would be chaotic. The colors (red and green) just signal whose turn it is (to make it easy and smooth).

[HuskerFan85]

theres a woman i play with at my cardroom and almost every hand she raises her cards to see because shes old and cant see well. She may be elderly, but poker is about making money, so I dont care to hurt someones feelings or play a little dirty. I had a good player sit next to me and after he raised me heads up, me knowing i was beat with nothing , i took FOREVER to fold. It irked the hell out of him where i got him to speak, and it knocked him out of his game. Besides, who wears shades to a 2-4 game? So the point Im getting at is do what you gotta do to make the money. No one ever said poker was a clean-fair fight.

[HuskerFan85]

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I can't believe there are so many people who don't think this is cheating. The level or moral development is so low amongst the people posting on this forum that it makes me glad to be playing against such--for lack of a better word--stupid people, but at the same time it worries me. Ask yourself: could these actions be willed to everyone at the table? (i.e. what if everyone at the table saw everyone's cards through his/her glasses?) Then it wouldn't be poker.

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A huge key in poker is about finding advantages against your opponents. Sure, if you see their holecards you have an unfair advantage, but if you had a tell on someone or are just plain better- it would be the same thing..... an unfair advantage. If everyone was on an equal level and everything was fair, NOBODY WOULD MAKE MONEY OTHER THAN THE HOUSE

[drunkencowboy]

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I can't believe there are so many people who don't think this is cheating. The level or moral development is so low amongst the people posting on this forum that it makes me glad to be playing against such--for lack of a better word--stupid people, but at the same time it worries me. Ask yourself: could these actions be willed to everyone at the table? (i.e. what if everyone at the table saw everyone's cards through his/her glasses?) Then it wouldn't be poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like the immanuel kant logic of right and wrong. ask yourself this question:

is it wrong to drive through red lights and stop at green lights?

what if everybody on the road was to do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm impressed with your cleverness, but your getting something wrong. The 'immorality' with going through a red light is driving through the intersection when it's not your turn. If everyone were to go when it isn't his/her turn, then it would be chaotic. The colors (red and green) just signal whose turn it is (to make it easy and smooth).

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That is correct. Part of Kants theory is that you must first choose the correct statement to describe the action.

I do not use the Kant theory of morality in my daily life however. I think he is an idiot. lol

Oh yeah. By the way. If everyone at the table could see everyone elses cards, the game could still be played. It would just be more retarded and would require pure gambling to win (eg. going all in with a flush draw against a set).

I think what I would do in this situation is tell the guy "I can see your cards in the reflection of your glasses." I would say this with a big smile and pretend to be joking - he may think that you really are just joking (almost like bluffing behavior) and might leave them on.

And then when the casino manager comes over you can be like "I told the guy but he wouldnt listen."

[slingshot_fl]

This is my first post, so I hope I am doing it right...

Of all the threads I have read on here recently, this is the one I have thought about the most. It seems to me there needs to be a distinction between violating rules and violating "fairness".

Cheating, it seems to me, can be defined as a violation of the rules, not a violation of fairness in general. I am not aware of a rule that says if a player fails to protect his or her hole cards and another player sees them that the second player has violated a rule. We could make that a rule, just like some tournaments rule a hand dead when cards are voluntarily exposed (or that low spade in the hole is wild in Chicago - it's no less arbitrary a rule), but until that time it's not cheating to use the all information available at the table. It might not be fair that you risk busting before the dealer does in blackjack, but it's not cheating - that's how the casinos wrote the rules, and you agree to those rules when you play in the casino.

Fairness is another issue altogether. It might not be a violation of the rules that I can see the cards of a weak player in their reflective sunglasses, so it can't be cheating, but it certainly does give me an unfair advantage. But as I think about it, I keep coming back to the same response: "So What?"

How can fairness be mandated in poker? If I have a 1600 SAT score and can crunch differential equations in my head, I probably have an advantage over the average table. If I have spent the last 20 years working as psychotherapist or a behavioral profiler, I just might have an advantage over the typical opponent. For that matter, if I have read 300 books on poker and entered a thousand tournaments, I might have an unfair advantage over the player who is playing for the first time and calls a re-raise when holding 3-8o from the small blind. That player is most likely going to get crushed, and it's unfair, but it's not cheating. I am not obligated to tell him that call is a bad choice any more than his decision to lift his hole cards off the table is a bad choice.

It's not cheating, it seems to me, because it's an open playing field: maybe not every player can have a 1600 SAT, but every player can choose to make an investment in learning the game, in learning to protect their hand and in learning to identify and minimize their tells.

[drunkencowboy]

If a casino does consider it cheating, then they should punish the guy who is wearing the glasses and not the players who are looking into the reflection...

In response to the above post, have you even read casino rules?

What if instead of the man's glasses you were seeing his cards off the reflection off a gold bar stool or something shiny?

[HuskerFan85]

cheating is doing something knowingly to give you or your partner an unfair edge, such as stacking the deck, being in cahoots with people at the table giving signals and cues, using card markers and dyes, etc.

If you notice certain tells and information that others are giving, but they are giving it to you on accident an not on purpose with you working together, its not cheating. youre just being a good player using everything to your advantage.

I associate most cheating to be used by partners. its very hard to do much cheating anymore, but i have seen pot jamming, where two players raise eachother when a helpless victim is between them getting sucked in. thats why theres a rule to see someones muck cards in a casino, to prevent collusion. The cardroom i play at hosts some of the worst play ive seen. people turn over their cards, accident or not, before the hand is over. people bet out of turn constantly. people throw their cards at the dealer or muck and they fly over exposing what they are. So many other foul plays. it used to piss me off, but i now use it to my advantage. all of the horrible playing they do, i use. So i aint cheating, its their fault theyre so sloppy.

[drunkencowboy]

yeah me and my buddy do that. ill stick a finger in my nose and that means i have aces. then if i get a caller he will min raise and i will min raise and he will min raise and i will min raise and we will do this until the guy either folds or is all in... then after he folds or is all in, my friend will fold too.