A Couple EV Questions

[ELCowboy]

The following questions pertain to short term EV in relation to table image:

1) Under the assumption that one is a long term +EV player, who is consistently better than his opponents, is it ever +EV to muck AA face up preflop before any significant action has happened? Should the fact they were mucked face up appear as accidental? What would some possible responses be when people ask, "WTF?!"

2) This question is sort of related to the first question. Is it ever +EV to act like a COMPLETE donk when you first sit down at a table by pretty much acting like you've never played poker before, much less in a casino or card room?

[jay_shark]

1) There are times when it's correct to fold pocket aces in a tournament with multiple payouts when you're close to the bubble . In a cash game it is incorrect to ever fold pocket aces . Also , you should never fold aces before action has started which is akin to folding a hand when checking is free .

2) It can be a profitable situation for you if your opponents underestimate your abilities . By the same token , there are times when it may work against you .

[tarheeljks]

[ QUOTE ]
1) There are times when it's correct to fold pocket aces in a tournament with multiple payouts when you're close to the bubble . In a cash game it is incorrect to ever fold pocket aces . Also , you should never fold aces before action has started which is akin to folding a hand when checking is free .

2) It can be a profitable situation for you if your opponents underestimate your abilities . By the same token , there are times when it may work against you .

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd just like to add that i would prefer my opponents think that i was much better than them, than that i was a luckbox donkey. you will get more action w/a donk image, but you will have more control in the latter scenario.

[ELCowboy]

jayshark: i meant specifically cash games...and i know id be losing cash in the short term, but it's more of a psychological ploy i guess.

tar: do you mean former?

[ELCowboy]

why would it not work in a poker game like it would in a pool hall? poker isn't a very phyiscially mechincal game like pool is...or at least i would think one COULD fake it. maybe not...

[jogsxyz]

[ QUOTE ]
why would it not work in a poker game like it would in a pool hall? poker isn't a very phyiscially mechincal game like pool is...or at least i would think one COULD fake it. maybe not...

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot less luck in pool than poker.

But remember in the Hustler Paul Newman got his thumbs broken.

[tarheeljks]

yeah i meant former

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
The following questions pertain to short term EV in relation to table image:

1) Under the assumption that one is a long term +EV player, who is consistently better than his opponents, is it ever +EV to muck AA face up preflop before any significant action has happened? Should the fact they were mucked face up appear as accidental? What would some possible responses be when people ask, "WTF?!"


[/ QUOTE ]

Never in a cash game. There are very, VERY rare tournament examples near the bubble in which you might calculate the best play is to fold if many players go all-in, and you will win a lot more money ~100% of the time if you just fold than if you go all-in and have only X% to win some larger amount of money, but Y% of winning nothing at all. For example, let's say the prize is a WSOP ticket for places 1 and 2. Nobody gets anything else and there are 4 players at the final table, each with approximately 10K chips while you have only 4K chips. Player one goes all-in, player two calls, player three calls, and you look down at AA. In that case, you could fold AA and be very close to certain that you will win a ticket unless somebody ends up chopping the pot (which is possible, but less likely than you losing the pot if you go all in - and since you have fewer chips, then you'd take only 4th place).

[ QUOTE ]
2) This question is sort of related to the first question. Is it ever +EV to act like a COMPLETE donk when you first sit down at a table by pretty much acting like you've never played poker before, much less in a casino or card room?

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe, but I doubt it. It doesn't take long for people to see if you know what you're doing or not.

Now, you might change gears by playing LAG early in small pots, but tightening up later in big pots, especially. Or, alternatively, being a nit for several hours to set up a big bluff or semi-bluff vs a good, but not great weak-tightie with a deep stack and an overpair on whom you have position. Etc.

I really think acting like a donk on purpose is just silly.

Be nice. Play cards. Change gears. Talk to people. Manipulate their perception of you and your hands with your talk and your mannerisms, if you can. But don't "act like you've never played poker before." That's just silly. And I don't see it working in a poker game the way it might work in a pool hall if you were hustling pool.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

#1 is giving up EV

As for #2, the bad players won't notice and the good players will see right through you.

[ELCowboy]

how would they know? what would give it away?