A discussion with Corsakh - 3betting pairs from the blinds

[kroeliewoelie]

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what?

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I don't understand what you mean with this post, but if your not understanding mine, I'll explain further.

1) opening range is important. if villain opens only AA are you going to 3bet?
2) calling range is a subset of opening range, so assigning opening range does matter.
3) if villain doesn't float etc postflop and throws away his marginal holdings preflop, 3betting isn't profitable. he won't fold enough and against his calling/raising range we lose too often.
4) If villain starts doing fancy things like: call with 22 preflop or call with AQ postflop. we start to gain showdown equity. In those cases hand value becomes important. And because this will sometimes happen 99>>>72o.
5) in the end I believe 3betting is justified by fold equity, metagame considerations, and showdown value against FPS players.

[traz]

All of your points deal with calling range. Every single one of them.

[andy099]

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In that case, the 3bet is good because he called you with a bad hand. So go ahead and 3bet that guy.

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Ya we both flop big hands but that being said against passive villains i will likely get two streets of value whereas by 3 betting preflop i have more money in the pot so villain more inclined to shove/ get all in on the flop.

Ya i missed the thing about villains 3 bet calling ranges. This is also important. If your 3 betting and they're calling with smaller pp's this is going to be a mistake mathematically(100bb) and at lower stakes you see more people call 3 bets with dominated hands.

[Quester]

This thread points out one of the biggest reasons PokerTracker needs 3-bet and call 3-bet as stats. I can't wait for PokerTracker 3 to come out. I'm always lost in this situation, so I default to 3-betting loose players with a high FCB% and just flat calling tough players, looking to hit a set, see a cheap showdown, or take it away from him on the turn.

[Bowlboy]

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This thread points out one of the biggest reasons PokerTracker needs 3-bet and call 3-bet as stats. I can't wait for PokerTracker 3 to come out. I'm always lost in this situation, so I default to 3-betting loose players with a high FCB% and just flat calling tough players, looking to hit a set, see a cheap showdown, or take it away from him on the turn.

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I took a good break from poker in the summer but have recently got back into it, but not too much time for 2p2. Anyhow, I too cant wait for PT to come out with 3betting and calling 3bet %'s. However, there is what I consider to be a decent way of getting a rough idea of what they're 3betting calling range is without this stat. On my HUD i like having the cpfr stat. For a lot of the decent players that will give you value from stealing this stat is somewhere between 5-10%. You have to figure that they are calling 3bets with less than whatever this is. What I look for in this situation is villains' stealing range to be much higher than what he would have called a preflop raise with. If they fold to cbets most of the time this makes restealing very profitable. There are a lot of multitablers in the micros that play so ABC that 3betting in position with any pp +EV because they're raising range is often 2-3times > than they're cpfr range. 3betting narrows that down even further. This isnt always accurate, as some players just cant seem to make a good laydown preflop when somebody 3bets them but for the most part it's worked for me.

[bozzer]

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This thread points out one of the biggest reasons PokerTracker needs 3-bet and call 3-bet as stats. I can't wait for PokerTracker 3 to come out. I'm always lost in this situation, so I default to 3-betting loose players with a high FCB% and just flat calling tough players, looking to hit a set, see a cheap showdown, or take it away from him on the turn.

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get Holdem Manager beta version for free and you can get these stats now. http://www.holdemmanager.net/

fwiw my rr frequency with 99-JJ is about 70% lifetime but my sample sizes are probably too small to compare results between calling and re-raising.

[corsakh]

I'll sup up my thoughts one more time:

TT-99 plays better vs a loose preflop caller in 3bet pots than in raised pots because:

- it gives you initiative
- makes moneys preflop
- takes away caller's positional advanatage
- makes it hard for him to bluff represent an overcard on the flop
- gives you good implied profit from AA/KK
- makes later streets much easier to play

[bozzer]

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All of your points deal with calling range. Every single one of them.

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yah.

1) we have a K alot so he can't mess with us (and have an 'unknown' range) anywhere near as much as you claim. note this is not us bluffing so much as our range is less bluffable than you suggest therefore playing the hand for value is easier.

2) isn't this almost exactly the same hand if we have QQ?

3) i think you have to realise the benefits of threebetting do not come in the situation you described (get called, two overs flop). ignoring metagame benefits a raise is fine for value because then he is making a mistake if he starts calling with one overcard. basically when we call pre in this example, his range has more kings in it than it does when we reraise. we are happy to take it down pre, but we have plenty of equity if called.

[kroeliewoelie]

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All of your points deal with calling range. Every single one of them.

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Of course they do, but they also deal with opening range. But I disagree with your statement that opening range range is useless. But you know that yourself, so let's not continue this useless discussion over such an unimportant point.