2 hands in which I'm faced with 2 bets on the turn

[Tryptamean]

Hand 1: Villian (turn raiser) is juuiiice, other guy is a spaz , like 70/45/1 who is somewhat sane postflop (i.e. doesnt spew horribly with nothing). sorry for raw hh, converter didnt work

POKERSTARS GAME #13319574946: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/11/18 -
14:28:00 (ET)
Table 'Sy II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Tryptamean ($866.50 in chips)
Seat 2: gonzo1983 ($455 in chips)
Seat 3: playtight14 ($638.50 in chips)
Seat 4: fonzzyman ($339.50 in chips)
Seat 5: juuuiice ($503 in chips)
Seat 6: chmouchmou ($768.50 in chips)
gonzo1983: posts small blind $5
playtight14: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tryptamean [Qh Qd]
fonzzyman: calls $10
juuuiice: raises $10 to $20
chmouchmou: folds
Tryptamean: raises $10 to $30
gonzo1983: folds
playtight14: folds
fonzzyman: calls $20
juuuiice: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [2h Js 8c]
fonzzyman: bets $10
juuuiice: raises $10 to $20
Tryptamean: raises $10 to $30
fonzzyman: raises $10 to $40
Betting is capped
juuuiice: calls $20
Tryptamean: calls $10
*** TURN *** [2h Js 8c] [8s]
fonzzyman: bets $20
juuuiice: raises $20 to $40


Hand 2: This is a 50/100 game a few weeks ago. Villian (turn raiser) is stinkypete. Other guys seemed normal also. On this hand, I really hate my flop play. After so many bets went in preflop, I was concerned with AA/KK and pussed out. on a scale of 1-10, how bad is the flop play? What to do on turn as played?

Hero is UTG with QQ, 5 handed

Hero raises, CO 3bets, BTN coldcaps, SB calls 4, all call.

Flop: 832r,

checks to CO who bets, BTN calls, SB raise, Hero calls 2, CO 3bets, BTN folds, SB calls 1, Hero calls 1.

Turn: 8323

checks to CO who bets, SB raises, Hero ??

[mtgordon]

Hand 1 sucks. I really want to see showdown but I'm not sure how to do it as cheaply as possible. I think I just call down and hope it doesn't get capped on the turn and hopefully not a lot of bets go in on the river either.


Hand 2 I fold the turn. I would have either led the flop or 3bet when it got back to me and see how it played out. Out of 10 I'll give the flop play a 6.

[Heisenb3rg]

Dont fold hand #1! Fonzy is nuts and has a wide range right now.. From what ive noticed, Juice has a tendency to overplay top pair in multiway pots, and I deifnitly think hes capable of using fonzy as leverage to knock you out of the pot.

Most good players range after the flop is heavily polairzed to one pair of jacks or 88

Juiiicee mixes up his preflop play more than most, but certainly not enough to think his range isnt polairzed to a pair of jacks.

I cant really comment on hand #2.. I have trouble believing stinky pete wouldnt cap the flop with anything that you aren't beating, so it really looks like a protection/isolation play on his part.. Something I dont see why AA/KK would want to do.

I really doubt he's calling 4 bets with anything that has a 3 in it. That being said, it looks like youre behind to CO a fair bit... But why would stinky be trying an isolation play if he didnt think CO's range is somewhat wide here?

Would like a better read on the players..

I dont fold either hand... and I dont 3-bet either hand.

[yourface]

what range of hands do you put UTG on in hand 1? given your read on him and his preflop stats I think it would be possible to narrow it down quite a lot

given his preflop stats I don't think he is going to have any TPGK type hands. with a pfr that high I'd expect him to be raising any broadway combo preflop. given your read that he is reasonably sane preflop, I think it is unlikely that he will play TPWK or MPTK in this way given the heavy action

do you think a range of [22, J2s, J8o, J8s, 82s] is too tight?

[yourface]

[ QUOTE ]
Dont fold hand #1! Fonzy is nuts and has a wide range right now

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe I have the wrong idea of what 'somewhat sane postflop' is

can he have 9To and stuff like J5s J6o in his range after the flop?

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Dont fold hand #1! Fonzy is nuts and has a wide range right now

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe I have the wrong idea of what 'somewhat sane postflop' is

can he have 9To and stuff like J5s J6o in his range after the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would say any Jx, excluding AJ/KJ/QJ (raises pf), probably any 8x, excluding A8/K8 and some random 2x hands are all possible.

T9, probably some gutters and occasional random cheese (I never saw him go a lot of bets postflop with cheese, but I haven't played a ton with him either)

so, basically still a wide range

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont fold either hand... and I dont 3-bet either hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is kind of what I was looking for. Just like many 2p2ers, I have a natural distaste for going against the standard 2p2 dogma (raise or fold).

Speaking mostly about hand 1, if you call 2 on the turn, what would it take to convince you that you're beat? If it comes back capped, we could just about peel for our 2 outer and showdown if its only 1 bet?

I guess its probably a similar situation for hand 2, but given my flop play I dont want to read too much into the turn action. That was a pretty [censored] game anyway and I was probably outclassed or neutral ev.

[vmacosta]

Hand 1 is a pretty easy call imo. I suppose I could be convinced that 3-betting were better, but I doubt it.

I've been stoving hand 2 a bit and it's hard to come up with ranges where you have more than 18% equity.

Say SB has 88, JJ+ and CO has 88+. I think it's fair to say that if you call 2 then CO will 3-bet {88,AA} and SB will cap only AA. If you work out the math, assuming reasonable river strategies for both players, then I get that you have -.15 bb on the call.

You can PM me if you want details on the math.

If SB always fastplays AA/KK on the flop then the whole situation changes and you should call. 3-betting would be borderline insane.

[stinkypete]

was i on tilt this session? makes a big difference imo

[Tryptamean]

I didn't notice any tilty behavior, and if i recall, you were not running bad