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#51
07-10-2007, 04:55 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] This is the thread in question. The relevant discussion starts on page 5 or so. Pvn does come closest to giving an answer, which is basically, "if we don't have property, then we have nothing," but that still sound like a mandatory belief in property rights to me. [/ QUOTE ] It's not mandatory, It's inherent and inescapable. It extends from owning yourself. If you however were to argue that you don’t believe in property whatsoever, than I’ll have to call bs, I cannot assault you if you don’t own you. You cannot be robbed, raped or suffer any injury at all. If you can be robbed, than you can own things. Land is just one of those things. What quality of land do you believe makes it “un-ownable” that doesn’t apply to any other “property”. [/ QUOTE ] Ownership of land is not "inherent". Societies have existed throughout history and around the globe that did not recognize it. We have adopted the principle of land ownership because we think it makes for a better society. But not because there is some higher Platonic truth to it. [/ QUOTE ] Property is inherent, not types of property. Name one society that had no property of any kind including self ownership. (This is a myth perpetuated by colonists to justify the robbing of indigenous peoples). We have adopted the principle of land ownership because we learned how to use it (farming). Societies that didn’t own land didn’t farm, as soon as they started farming land you better believe they started owning land. 
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#52
07-10-2007, 05:01 PM
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Re: a quick thought
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Nick is not saying "Other rights might sometimes be more important than property rights" like you are. He is saying "What if person X doesn't believe in property rights (at all)?" [/ QUOTE ] ACists are always saying, "If I don't believe in your morality, you have no right to force it upon me." I'm just saying that AC itself forces a morality upon everyone living under it, and it is a morality that adopts a set of axioms that generate property rights and exclude the possibility of any so-called "positive" rights. [/ QUOTE ] But the only people who "live under it" are those who voluntarily agree to. Ergo, they are not imposed upon. [/ QUOTE ] You could say the same thing about democratic statism. You are free to leave, and thus by staying, you are agreeing to the coersion of the state. [/ QUOTE ] Being "free to leave" doesn't mean you're not being imposed upon. In your own example, I don't have to assault you when you won't leave "my" land, you're free to leave on your own; if I am not imposed upon by democratic statism, then neither are you. [ QUOTE ] If all of the property on a physical piece of land is "owned" in an AC society, how is the anti-property person supposed to live without (a) being coerced to accept property rights or (b) leaving? [/ QUOTE ] How did he get "there" (wherever that is) in the first place? You don't just magically wake up in the middle of someone else's house.
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#53
07-10-2007, 05:02 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It’s not a question of belief. It’s a question of behavior. What an ACist believes is not equal and opposite to what a Statist believes. A Statist believes that his/her beliefs entitle him/her to control/coerce me. If the arguments were: Statist: I don’t believe in owning guns. Therefore I don’t own a gun ACist: I believe in owning guns. Therefore I own a gun Statist: I don’t believe land can be owned. Therefore, I don’t own any land. ACist: I believe land can be owned. Therefore, I own land. They would be equal and opposite (morally). However: Statist: I don’t believe in owning guns. Therefore you can’t own a gun ACist: I believe in owning guns. Therefore I own a gun Statist: I don’t believe land can be owned. Therefore, you can’t own any land. ACist: I believe land can be owned. Therefore, I own land. Is the argument, they are not equal at all. The Statist believes that his beliefs entitle him to restrict my behavior. ACland has room for everyone, Stateland however does not. (You are also making an additional leap that trespassing entitles the land owner to assault you. I don’t think ACist would agree (I don’t)). [/ QUOTE ] My whole point is that the ACist belief in property does restrict my behavior. ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. [/ QUOTE ] The behavior that is restricted is not any behavior that you had any right to engage in to begin with. So what's your objection?
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#54
07-10-2007, 05:06 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It’s not a question of belief. It’s a question of behavior. What an ACist believes is not equal and opposite to what a Statist believes. A Statist believes that his/her beliefs entitle him/her to control/coerce me. If the arguments were: Statist: I don’t believe in owning guns. Therefore I don’t own a gun ACist: I believe in owning guns. Therefore I own a gun Statist: I don’t believe land can be owned. Therefore, I don’t own any land. ACist: I believe land can be owned. Therefore, I own land. They would be equal and opposite (morally). However: Statist: I don’t believe in owning guns. Therefore you can’t own a gun ACist: I believe in owning guns. Therefore I own a gun Statist: I don’t believe land can be owned. Therefore, you can’t own any land. ACist: I believe land can be owned. Therefore, I own land. Is the argument, they are not equal at all. The Statist believes that his beliefs entitle him to restrict my behavior. ACland has room for everyone, Stateland however does not. (You are also making an additional leap that trespassing entitles the land owner to assault you. I don’t think ACist would agree (I don’t)). [/ QUOTE ] My whole point is that the ACist belief in property does restrict my behavior. ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. [/ QUOTE ] The behavior that is restricted is not any behavior that you had any right to engage in to begin with. So what's your objection? [/ QUOTE ] haha, Nick's really rocking this thread.
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#55
07-10-2007, 05:10 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It’s not a question of belief. It’s a question of behavior. What an ACist believes is not equal and opposite to what a Statist believes. A Statist believes that his/her beliefs entitle him/her to control/coerce me. If the arguments were: Statist: I don’t believe in owning guns. Therefore I don’t own a gun ACist: I believe in owning guns. Therefore I own a gun Statist: I don’t believe land can be owned. Therefore, I don’t own any land. ACist: I believe land can be owned. Therefore, I own land. They would be equal and opposite (morally). However: Statist: I don’t believe in owning guns. Therefore you can’t own a gun ACist: I believe in owning guns. Therefore I own a gun Statist: I don’t believe land can be owned. Therefore, you can’t own any land. ACist: I believe land can be owned. Therefore, I own land. Is the argument, they are not equal at all. The Statist believes that his beliefs entitle him to restrict my behavior. ACland has room for everyone, Stateland however does not. (You are also making an additional leap that trespassing entitles the land owner to assault you. I don’t think ACist would agree (I don’t)). [/ QUOTE ] My whole point is that the ACist belief in property does restrict my behavior. ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. [/ QUOTE ] The behavior that is restricted is not any behavior that you had any right to engage in to begin with. So what's your objection? [/ QUOTE ] This is circular reasoning. You use your own opinion to validate your own opinion.
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#56
07-10-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
My whole point is that the ACist belief in property does restrict my behavior. ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. [/ QUOTE ] How is anything you've said so far useful for figuring out how we should structure modern societies?
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#57
07-10-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
My whole point is that the ACist belief in property does restrict my behavior. ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. [/ QUOTE ] It’s so hard letting go of the state isn’t it. [ QUOTE ] ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. WITHOUT MY CONSENT [/ QUOTE ] Your belief in your nose restricts me from punching it too. No one is complaining here however (rightly so). The same applies to all property. What is it about AC that makes you think trespassing will be resolved violently in any and all cases?
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#58
07-10-2007, 05:13 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] My whole point is that the ACist belief in property does restrict my behavior. ACist: I believe in property. Therefore, you can't be on my property. [/ QUOTE ] How is anything you've said so far useful for figuring out how we should structure modern societies? [/ QUOTE ] Maybe because it is not possible to have a real discussion before dubious claims have been refuted.
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#59
07-10-2007, 05:15 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I believe you got an answer numerous times from pvn and perhaps others, but please link the thread if I'm wrong. [/ QUOTE ] This is the thread in question. The relevant discussion starts on page 5 or so. Pvn does come closest to giving an answer, which is basically, "if we don't have property, then we have nothing," but that still sound like a mandatory belief in property rights to me. [/ QUOTE ] It requires a belief in property rights? Who cares? How many places do you know of right now that do not believe in property rights? If I stroll into your house and grab some steaks out of your fridge and put your watch on and stroll out r u gonna smile and ask if I need any money too?
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#60
07-10-2007, 05:21 PM
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Re: a quick thought
[ QUOTE ]
How many places do you know of right now that do not believe in property rights? [/ QUOTE ] I thik in most societies only a small minority support the interpretation of unlimited property rights that is a fundament for many AC'ist's belief system. That doesn't determine whether it is right or wrong obviously, but you can't claim any consensus as you belong to a minority.
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