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  #1  
Old 11-26-2007, 06:25 PM
Gauge Gauge is offline
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Default 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

I believe this question belongs here but if not please advise.

Today at the woods I got there really early.. 830am.. Just as I came in a new table opened up and I soon found myself sitting with the older crowd. They are all nice guys and Ive played with most of them a few time but their play is so tight Im not sure how to squeeze a few extra bucks out of them. I am currently averaging 3.5 BB an hour at the usual loose tables so this put a big speed bump in the road

Two quick examples is QJ suited on the button. Rock calls. turn is 2 9 10 rainbow. I check he checks. Turn is a Jack. I bet he rapid raises. I say "so youve got KQ?" and I fold. He doesnt even have the sense not to show me the KQ.. he made $6 on the deal.

Second example is same character raises UTG+2 .. might as well had his aces face up. I have 78suited BB so I call figuring I have a 33% chance to crack him. He let me check it down to the river almost catching a straight and shows his aces... short story long.. Tight.

Question.. How do I get more money out of these guys.. I know they are no fools and constant aggression wont be feared by them. I opened up my limping range on the late side with some success (q9 suited, J8 suited) but short of that.. what do I do? I see these guys spread out most days but days like this are bound to come up again.

Thank you for taking my call and Ill take my response off the air. (NPR anyone?)
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  #2  
Old 11-26-2007, 06:29 PM
KitCloudkicker KitCloudkicker is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

rock garden + 2/4 draconian rake = dont play that game.
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  #3  
Old 11-26-2007, 06:43 PM
jesse8888 jesse8888 is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

KIT is right. If you're paying a big bet or more per hand in rake, you need to be getting PAID when you hit your hands. Find a new table. If I remember correctly, the 4/8 tables at foxwoods were absolutely crushable, and that's back before I knew what a free-card raise was.
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  #4  
Old 11-26-2007, 06:54 PM
Gauge Gauge is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

At that hour there were only two tables playing and the other was full.. Im currently waiting to build up my bankroll up enough to safely move to 4/8. At the current rate I need about 50 hours more play at 2/4. Which I dont mind doing at all because Im still learning.. for example I dont know how to successfully use the free-card raise yet.

Rake aside, from a theory standpoint.. what can I do against these guys short of leaving the table?
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  #5  
Old 11-26-2007, 06:57 PM
dacannman dacannman is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

I play in a 4/8 FullKill game some weeknights, and usually half the table is real rocky like this. Rake issues aside, I believe good aggresive play should beat the rocks for a good rate over time.

These guys are totally missing all value from their winning hands. Sure, you don't get paid tons on your big hands. But they are constantly missing value against you. Every time they miss a value bet that you would have made, you profit. You aren't going to lose nearly as much as you should on the inevitable coolers. Those add up.

I actually believe an expert may make more in a tight game like this (again, rake aside). In the no-foldem loose games, the pots get so big that everyone is only slightly wrong to be chasing. But these rocks are missing full value bets on practically every winning hand of theirs.
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  #6  
Old 11-26-2007, 06:58 PM
jesse8888 jesse8888 is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

I think the general answer is "play more aggressively". In a game like this, C-betting with UI big slick might actually take down the pot, where as in many 2-4 games betting into the field with that hand is sort of like peeing into the wind.

The problem is that plays like blind stealing and winning pots heads up are hard to do profitably with a huge rake. Good luck.
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  #7  
Old 11-26-2007, 07:00 PM
Frond Frond is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

I still can't figure out how anyone can build up much of a roll playing 2/4 live. To be honest, I wasn't a winning player nor did I build up my roll more until I moved up to 4/8 & higher(I know it sounds sad but it is true). I know Gobblydegeek plays 2/4 and he seems like a solid player but it must take forever to do at 2/4.
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  #8  
Old 11-26-2007, 07:21 PM
jesse8888 jesse8888 is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

Gobbley is on like a 6 month downswing if i'm not mistaken...before that he won at a good rate. If you win 3.25 big bets per hour, like OP says he's doing, that ain't bad (I currently am at around 1 big bet per hour at 6/12, so he's actually making more than I am), but I can't imagine that sort of win rate is sustainable. Are the players THAT terrible?
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  #9  
Old 11-26-2007, 07:25 PM
Bob T. Bob T. is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

[ QUOTE ]
Two quick examples is QJ suited on the button. Rock calls. turn is 2 9 10 rainbow. I check he checks. Turn is a Jack. I bet he rapid raises. I say "so youve got KQ?" and I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if he is playing that tight, I certainly would have C-bet the flop. Maybe he would fold his hand there.

[ QUOTE ]
Second example is same character raises UTG+2 .. might as well had his aces face up. I have 78suited BB so I call figuring I have a 33% chance to crack him. He let me check it down to the river almost catching a straight and shows his aces... short story long.. Tight.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key here you got to draw as cheaply as you could, and then he played fast late. Your implied odds are huge in this game, so you should lean toward the hands that thrive in an implied odds environment.
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2007, 02:52 AM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
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Default Re: 2/4 Foxwoods.. what to do in a rock garden?

if the 2/4 foxwoods game is rocky, look for a new table or try a juicy looking 4/8. it can't be rocky rocky though in my experience. it's probably just passive old guys who don't pay off a lot. try bluffing at more orphan pots and raising more preflop in position.
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