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  #51  
Old 11-24-2007, 02:19 AM
SenatorKevin SenatorKevin is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

You guys also forget that casinos do not own the shuffling machines and lease them. Those shuffling machines are outrageously expensive and cost the casino as well. I believe the standard automatic shuffler has a market value of 16k PER shuffler. Obviously its leased but its still an additional cost. (The same applies to other games though with auto shufflers)
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  #52  
Old 11-24-2007, 03:21 AM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default shufflers

Yes, shufflers are a very expensive way for the casino to earn additional profit. If utilized properly, they can make lots of extra money for the room. This means they need to be running most of the time. Too many leased shufflers sitting idle will cost more than they will earn. For this reason some rooms, especially small ones, should not have shufflers at every table. If a ten table room has 45% average occupancy, four or five shufflers is fine. These tables should obviously be opened first and closed last.

It's an interesting question whether a room with say 10 table, 45% occupancy would do better with ten shufflers or five. Would the extra hands earned when the room is full make enough to cover or exceed the cost of the idle time? My guess is no, but I don't have any evidence to prove which way is best, or to show the curves as average occupancy or rake rises or falls. **.

Keep in mind a shuffler is only good for the difference in hands dealt, not for all the hands. I've estimated that the best dealers will get one or two extra hands per hour, while the worst might get five or six, tops. Also,if the shuffler really helps a dealer that much, they are probably deathfully slow at multiple other aspects of dealing as well.

By now it's almost a novel idea, but games have been known to run just fine without shufflers at all.

** but if a room wanted to experiment, I'd be the one to analyze and graph in vivid detail. I just love making graphs :-)
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2007, 04:27 AM
that_pope that_pope is offline
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Default Re: shufflers

[ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind a shuffler is only good for the difference in hands dealt, not for all the hands. I've estimated that the best dealers will get one or two extra hands per hour, while the worst might get five or six, tops. Also,if the shuffler really helps a dealer that much, they are probably deathfully slow at multiple other aspects of dealing as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I trust your thoughts, but does this take into account counting the deck twice a down, something most dealers don't do like they should....
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2007, 04:44 AM
Triumph36 Triumph36 is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

[ QUOTE ]
And don't forget that high rollers sometimes win big at table games and spend that money somewhere else. You can't count on them dropping all their cash in the craps game. The casino gets guaranteed money from poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Sure they do. Sure, any given player X is not guaranteed to go broke, but the whole point is that the casino edge will win out eventually. A casino's hourly expectation is higher per player for any table game than it is for poker.

I don't know that much about this subject but my suspicion is that casino management types really don't like losing out on money they could get otherwise - and people donking off money at poker to nits who won't touch the pit games is a scenario they detest.
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  #55  
Old 11-24-2007, 05:45 AM
RR RR is offline
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Default Re: shufflers

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Keep in mind a shuffler is only good for the difference in hands dealt, not for all the hands. I've estimated that the best dealers will get one or two extra hands per hour, while the worst might get five or six, tops. Also,if the shuffler really helps a dealer that much, they are probably deathfully slow at multiple other aspects of dealing as well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I trust your thoughts, but does this take into account counting the deck twice a down, something most dealers don't do like they should....

[/ QUOTE ]

Counting the stub should not use up any time as it should be done on hands where there is enough action on the river t o do a count.
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  #56  
Old 11-24-2007, 10:06 AM
RydenStoompala RydenStoompala is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

Good post, Al. A little ranty but none-the-less good. Poker makes money or it wouldn't be on the casino floor. Some rooms post better returns per foot than others, Bellagio being a case study of excellence. The gaming experience involves many different games ranging from the sterile(slots) to high contact (table games). If casino floor design was strictly guided by revenue per foot there would be only slots and nasty payout slots at that. If poker or any other game were a money loser, it would not be part of the business. There's no need for a loss-leader in gaming. It's too easy to run things profitably.

And they can make money at the swimming pool...drinks and food sales.
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  #57  
Old 11-24-2007, 10:27 AM
AlienBoy AlienBoy is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is unprofitable.

Casinos lose money on poker.

Bull-pucky, bull-pucky, bull-crapola.

I wonder if these people actually like the taste of bullpucky, because that's what comes out of their mouths every time something like this is said.

A fairly busy 10 or 12 table room can easily make several million dollars a year. The costs associated with running and maintaining this room will likely not exceed 30% of their total rake. My figures come from numbers I've actually seen with my own eyes, but obviously I can't give exact numbers.


[/ QUOTE ]



There's a lot of truth here. Larry Flynt makes MORE MONEY from his gardena card room, than ALL of his other businesses combined.

So much so that he's planning a Las Vegas casino.

But the Hustler Casino, LA is a HUGE money maker - no slots, no craps - just the rake from poker and other card games.

Cha-CHing!


AB
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  #58  
Old 11-24-2007, 10:33 AM
AlienBoy AlienBoy is offline
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Default Re: shufflers

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, shufflers are a very expensive way for the casino to earn additional profit.

[/ QUOTE ]


A deck mate shuffler is $15000

I estimate that in a LIMIT game you get roughly 4 to 6 MORE hands per hour.

Let's take LA rake - if the casino is making $4 a hand, then that's $16 to $24 more per hour.

If a table is operating 24 hours a day, it pays for itself in less than 40 days.


Even if you are conservative and say that it's only 2 more hands per hour, it's still paying for itself in under 3 months.

I *don't* think shufflers are as profitable in No Limit games, as these games tend to run much slower due to reasons not related to shuffling.


AB
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2007, 10:35 AM
PokrLikeItsProse PokrLikeItsProse is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

If a casino determines that it is unable to run a top-notch poker room (or is not sufficiently interested in doing so), would it still be interested in running a small, mildly-profitable, low-effort room with the hopes that a sufficient number of casinos do otherwise in a sort of unintentional collusion in order to prevent any other competitor from having a hugely successful room by taking a lot of tiny bites out of the poker pie?
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  #60  
Old 11-24-2007, 01:08 PM
JohnnyGroomsTD JohnnyGroomsTD is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

What about casinos with time drop as their primary rake? The only reason to have shufflers in those games is to improve customer satisfaction.
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