Borgata PR sports betting charges being brought

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I'd hate to have you on a jury, you assume way too much.

I grew up in the adjacent town to where John Gotti Jr lives (Babylon), my childhood friends were the suns and daughters of associates and solders. I was surrounded by this since I was a kid, most of what you assume isn't true - its all about the fear that it could occur. A loanshark isn't dumb, he knows that if he breaks someones thumbs to collect a debt then the heat will be on him - which destroys his business. They are business men, they worry about things that normal businesses worry about like marketing, public perception, etc etc etc. Its bad business to create an upset customer, the customer's actions can put the loanshark out of business for good. Fear is a loansharks #1 collection tool, violence is very very very rarely used.

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Read the biography of Stuey Ungar by Peter Alson and Nolan Dalla. Ungar's father was a bookie, and according to the book never used violent collection means. The best way to get a debt paid was to threaten to cut off the action of the person who owed it - to a degenerate, this is worse than violence.

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oddly I used to live across the street from the Sly Foxx in NY, Unger's father's bar. 9th street and 2nd avenue. Small world eh? that place was a dive.

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pocketpared : your applying another loansharking case on the situations in this case, don't you think thats a bit ridiculous? Different people, different situations, different biz practices. There are extremes everywhere in life, there are both passive and violent loansharks in this world but in general the violent types are found on the TV and in the movies. I admit anything is possible, but until there is a shred of evidence that there was physical violence used or threatened by the accused its best that assumptions are not made on this forum. We have already had one news reporter snooping around, I'd hate to have 2+2 become a source of innuendo that keeps the defendants from having a fair trial.

Now if someone wants to tell a story about how they were roughed up by the defendants as they were collecting a debt then thats fair game, until then no more assumptions. okthanksbye.

[pocketpared]

Loansharks are loansharks. They don't change by location. You think Philadelphia organized criminals are nicer than organized criminals elsewhere in the country? I haven't even mentioned the beatings to slow payers administered by bookies I'm aware of.

[pokerswami]

This post is not about the Borgata story. It is a reply to an earlier post in this thread.

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I guarantee you my conception of right and wrong is a hell of a lot different than yours.

What "victims" did this "ring" have? Adults gambled, lost, and borrowed money to cover those losses. No one put a gun to their heads and told them they had to take a high interest loan. People are responsible for their own actions, period. If a guy borrows money from a loanshark and can't pay it back, whatever consequences might occur are his own fault. If you have so much concern for these "victims", what about the victims of the credit card companies? What about all the people with ARMs that getting their houses forclosed upon?

If you don't want to be involved in any of the shadier areas of life, then by all means don't get involved in them. Just remember, you're not involved, so whatever happens there is none of your business.

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Well, to quote you, "I just wanted to let you know how much I hate this attitude."

The original, and still true among many, concept of Libertarians was that the state has no interest in the value of human life. If someone was murdered, then the family of the deceased or those immediately suffering a loss from his death would need to bring civil action against the guilty party to recover damages. Thus one could literally, if he could afford it, get away with murder.

The idea was that it doesn't matter to the state, it only matters to those who could prove a loss due to the murder, battery, rape, robbery, theft, destruction of property or whatever.

I believe we all suffer a direct degradation to our lives when people become widely subject to the assaults so often portrayed in stories of crime in America. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, and I'm no rabid right-winger. I'm a conservative. I highly value my constitutional right to bear arms to defend myself.

You said "If a guy borrows money from a loanshark and can't pay it back, whatever consequences might occur are his own fault." and "If you don't want to be involved in any of the shadier areas of life, then by all means don't get involved in them. Just remember, you're not involved, so whatever happens there is none of your business."

Your ideas would allow our cities, states and nation to become filled with those, whom we now consider criminals, to freely go about doing whatever physical and mental violence they wish to their customers, because it "is none of" our "business." I consider us to be overrun now with violent criminals. Imagine what it would be like if we decided, societally, not to make it our business.

What do you think would happen to the economy on which we all now depend if no one felt safe enough to conduct commerce? Isn't that "our business?"

The more of and the more freely that violent criminals go about their business, the less safe we all are. You believe that as long as we're not directly involved, then it's not our business. I believe you're wrong. These are not victimless crimes nor are they crimes that only affect those directly involved? They affect us all.

You believe we should not involve ourselves in "whatever consequences might occur."

I believe that if those who engage in "whatever consequences" they want to in the pursuit of their business seriously feared being caught and severly punished for any attacks they made on others, then they would re-figure their equations of profit and loss and decide to conduct their business differently.

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Loansharks are loansharks. They don't change by location. You think Philadelphia organized criminals are nicer than organized criminals elsewhere in the country? I haven't even mentioned the beatings to slow payers administered by bookies I'm aware of.

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I'll say it again because you didn't get the message - If someone wants to tell a story about how they were roughed up by the defendants as they were collecting a debt then thats fair game, until then no more assumptions. okthanksbye.

[Mike Gallo]

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Any bookmaking or loan-sharking that went on was wrong.


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Agree.

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Well I disagree. Bookmaking is illegal but not wrong, in my opinion. Loansharking (usury) I'm not clear on. What is its exact definition as distinct from banking loans or credit card loans?

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The difference is when you default on your bank loan, a young telemarketer type calls you and tells you that your payment is late. When you default to a loanshark, he shows up with a bat at your house, to assault you in front of your wife and kids. Maybe two guys will use a pair of plyers on your thumb, etc. Get it?

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you have watched too many movies. Yes this can happen, but thats the extreme example.

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I cannot believe how this thread has gotten derailed.

FYI the term usuary means..

Usury (/'juʒ(&#601ɹi/, from the Medieval Latin usuria, "interest" or "excessive interest", from Latin usura "interest") was defined originally as charging a fee for the use of money. This usually meant interest on loans, although charging a fee for changing money (as at a bureau de change) is included in the original meaning. After moderate-interest loans were made more easily available usury became an accepted part of the business world in the early modern age. Today, the word has come to refer to the charging of unreasonable or relatively high rates of interest

[DrewOnTilt]

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I cannot believe how this thread has gotten derailed.



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The thread has gotten derailed due to people making assumptions, thereby making an ass out of U and Umption.

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FYI the term usuary means..
Usury (/'juʒ(&#601ɹi/, from the Medieval Latin usuria, "interest" or "excessive interest", from Latin usura "interest") was defined originally as charging a fee for the use of money. This usually meant interest on loans, although charging a fee for changing money (as at a bureau de change) is included in the original meaning. After moderate-interest loans were made more easily available usury became an accepted part of the business world in the early modern age. Today, the word has come to refer to the charging of unreasonable or relatively high rates of interest

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Correct. From Webster.com:
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Date: 14th century

1 archaic : interest
2: the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates
3: an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of money


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Some of the 23 charged in the Borgata case are charged with consipracy to commit criminal usury, defined by the state of New Jersey as interest in excess of 30%.

[kailua]

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oddly I used to live across the street from the Sly Foxx in NY, Unger's father's bar. 9th street and 2nd avenue. Small world eh? that place was a dive.

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TT.... Rosey Grier has nothing on you.

[*TT*]

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oddly I used to live across the street from the Sly Foxx in NY, Unger's father's bar. 9th street and 2nd avenue. Small world eh? that place was a dive.

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TT.... Rosey Grier has nothing on you.

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well for starters he was Pam Grier's cousin... I can only wish I was related to the original foxy momma.

[redfisher]

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oddly I used to live across the street from the Sly Foxx in NY, Unger's father's bar. 9th street and 2nd avenue. Small world eh? that place was a dive.

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TT.... Rosey Grier has nothing on you.

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well for starters he was Pam Grier's cousin... I can only wish I was related to the original foxy momma.

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TT,

As someone with quite a bit of hillbilly in my background, I find your last comment somewhat disturbing. Hopefully I'm just projecting.