Harrahs Rake Increase

[Stoopidskunk]

For the record, I know that the I.P. is still a 4 max.

[redfisher]

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I think Harrah's N.O. is $5 + $1 jackpot

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For limit that's correct. For NL it's $6/down + $1/hand JP. They may not take the JP at 5/10 and 10/25 NL.

I'm not sure $5+1 is a Harrah's rake policy. It seems pretty standard in Louisiana.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Even 5 years ago 5+1 was standard in louisianna. It's a new thing in vegas, and has pissed off many players. Part of the reason people are so pissed off about it here is that they're already pissed off about the fact harrahs keeps claiming how much better the wsop will be this year, but in reality it keeps getting worse. The **** should really hit the fan if they're jacking up the rake at the rio for the 2008 wsop. They should have a real riot on their hands if they try and charge the bigger cash game players more in time charges (even tho they've been charging these jerks considerably less than most other places already do).

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Harrahs is leading the way backwards when it comes to poker.

Al

[Poshua]

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This rake increase was one of the stupidest moves they have made yet. All of these rooms have lost considerable business, mostly from regular players and some from the more saavy tourists. The rooms wind up with fewer games, but the overall drop has probably remained about the same.

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Fewer games going = Lower operating expenses
Lower operating expenses + same total drop as before = +EV for Harrah's

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In addition, there will be fewer players able to win at these rooms, and games that do get started will break faster. Non-winning players will lose faster and be more likely to give up sooner.

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I'm not sure this is true. Harrah's went to a 5 rake in its rooms that are primarily for tourists/conventioneers who happen to be at the property, but not at Caesar's, which is their only Vegas poker room that is actually a draw in its own right. To the extent the higher rake drives away locals and poker-driven tourists, that probably improves the casual player's EV in these games, higher rake notwithstanding.

Also, I suspect that the more casual player that Harrah's targets is a better customer for Harrah's in other ways (house-banked games, hotel, f&b) than tourists whose primary focus is poker or (especially) locals.

I'm not saying I support the rake increase; as a player, low rake is always better. I'm wouldn't assume this decision was a mistake from Harrah's standpoint, though.

[whorasaurus]

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Fewer games going = Lower operating expenses
Lower operating expenses + same total drop as before = +EV for Harrah's



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Ok, tell me how sustainable a poker room is when half of its table are ALWAYS empty. Especially when plenty of neighboring poker rooms don't look like graveyards. Image is very important to a poker room, especially long-term.

[JohnnyGroomsTD]

It is very sustainable if you treat it as a gaming option for your guest as opposed to a primary stream of revenue for your property. Like many other amenities a casino offers, they serve as an"extra draw" for the primary streams of revenue, slots, table games, hotel, etc.

[whorasaurus]

I'm just suggesting that there can be negative feedback loops that can relatively quickly erode the number of patrons at any card room. It's not hard to see how this happens either. If the rake is raised, most of the regulars and astute tourists will find other places to play. If, over the course of a month for example, the number of players at a card room drops by a third, that will have a pretty large impact on that room's reputation, or 'feel' if you will.

Imagine you went to a bar that you normally enjoyed. Only today, drink prices were jacked up, and the place was dead. You went back a few more times to see if things changed, but everything was still expensive and not much fun. Pretty safe to say you'd quit going to that bar, right? It's likely that if enough people felt the same way, that bar would go out of business.

Card rooms are subject to the same market forces as the above bar example. The only reason defunct card rooms hang on longer than they should is that there is a significant overhead to renovating a poker room into another raft of slot machines.

[zuluking]

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Even 5 years ago 5+1 was standard in louisianna.

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Al, you're half-right. Its about split between 5+1 and 4+1 at casinos across the state.

[Abe]

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For the record, I know that the I.P. is still a 4 max.

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Thanks for the update -- keep us posted on any changes.

And -- What about O'Sheas? 4 or 5 max there?

[psandman]

I was told that IP was going to $5 max on no limit games. This was from a floor person at Harrah's.