1/2 - KK, ace on board.

[Landonfan]

I'm getting the right express odds to call the 3-bet.

That's not what I wanted to know, though. I'm more interested in what line you guys would have taken here. I didn't like any of my options on the flop and felt totally lost.

[Montrealcorp]

yeah guit...
i was asking that:
since we dont have odds to call flop if we dont have the best hand(of course we dont know)but still were close(3.5 outs),isnt raisng to find out if we have the best hand or might have a chance to bluff him(if he fold a weak A)worth a SB raise on flop and we call to see if we improve on turn(and we did) for an off call on flop of around 1 SB???

thats why i ask that do we need exactly the right odds(even when we are off by around 1SB)when we semi bluff and we call to see if we hit or improve???

any answer?

[Landonfan]

[ QUOTE ]
You admit that he didn't have the odds to call the first bet with a 3-outer. Then he raised and gets 3banged. Now he suddenly calls correctly?

Altogether hero paid 3 SB to get his 3-out ticket for the turn in a 15.5 SB pot. This is a 5.17:1 call, very unprofitable.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't think of it that way. Once my raise is in the pot, you can no longer count it as mine.

[Guitierez]

[ QUOTE ]
isnt raisng to find out if we have the best hand or might have a chance to bluff him(if he fold a weak A)worth a SB raise on flop

[/ QUOTE ]

This depends on your style and if villain is capable to lay down a weak A. But in both cases the answer is fold.

If you raised to find out where you stand, getting 3banged should tell you something. And a semibluff is to take down the pot, it failed when called.

[Montrealcorp]

all right guitierez,if u say we need to fold a semi bluff even when as close as 1 SB to have the right uts so be it,i would just like to hear about others what they think on this?not that i dont trust u but u know,more opinion is always better
cheer

[MrWookie]

[ QUOTE ]
SUPER GRUNCH

PF: Standard -- KK is 2nd best hand...

Flop: 10.5:1 is a big pot, but villain showed aggression preflop, and is now betting into a pf 3-bettor and another player. If he's bluffing he's picked a really bad spot. You have two somewhat dirty K outs and a BDFD -- worth a total of about 3 outs total if you are behind, not enough to call. I think you are WB much more often than WA, so taking a WA/WB line here is incorrect IMO. Fold.

FWIW, I think calling is the next best action after folding, since my backup plan is to go into WA/WB mode. I think 3-betting is spew.

As played, however, once you've raised and are 3b, you have enough odds to call.

Turn: Hit the flush draw, clearly calling is correct.

River: Odds are 10.75:1 but villain has shown nothing but aggression here. I don't think you are good even 10% of the time. Fold.

If you had been playing WA/WB, I'd probably call this river.

Edit: Per Aaron, K's are not "somewhat dirty" -- misread the HH

[/ QUOTE ]

This is all correct.