Pooled Tips - Evidence that its bad

[jjshabado]

I've been hearing a lot more ragging on Foxwoods dealers, and blaming it on their pooled tips. This has been said so many times but I think people are exaggerating how much this effects quality of dealing. When I'm playing live I almost always tip $1 for a pot bigger than 2-3 BB. I'll tip 2-3% of dealers slightly better because they're really good. I'll not tip (or skip some pots) 1-2% of dealers because they blow. But they have to be pretty bad before I don't tip them. I've rarely seen other people purposefully stiff a dealer for being slow/inappropriate. I have seen other players tip more to entertaining dealers more often, but those are also dealers that I often don't find particularly effective when it comes to dealing.

I would suspect that the middle 80-90% of dealers get tipped roughly the same. So I don't see that chip pooling is this huge factor in crappy dealers at Foxwoods. I would suspect that its caused more by the fact that there are fewer good dealers that live in Conneticut, and there's a lack of competition from other casinos.

Is there any research that supports chip pooling is this horrible drag on dealing effectively? I'm thinking something like the amount of tips per dealer per limit over some relatively large amount of time. If that showed that the vast majority of dealers made approximately the same amount then I think you'd have to draw the conclusion that most patrons don't reward good service with extra tips / bad service with fewer tips.

One final note, I understand the Capitalist vs Communist debate that having a dealer receive direct compensation for their work will be an incentive for them to work harder. I agree with this, I also believe non-pooling tips is a good idea, I just don't think its that big of a factor on dealer quality. (Actually I would implement a system of non-pooling tips up to a maximum of something like $100 a down, the overage gets pooled for everyone to account for those occassional crazy-ass tables of rich people that tip insanely).

Edit: I edited the title to better reflect what I'm asking about.

[steamboatin]

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So I don't see that chip pooling is this huge factor in crappy dealers at Foxwoods. I would suspect that its caused more by the fact that there are fewer good dealers that live in Conneticut, and there's a lack of competition from other casinos.


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I respectfully disagree.

I have personal first hand knowledge of the amazing difference in dealer quality/number of hands/customer service/game quality between pooled and non-pooled tips.

When I first began playing, the dealers pooled their tips at my local B&M. I would travel to Las Vegas or Tunica and be amazed at the difference in dealer speed and competence.

I wrote to IGC in support of poker dealers being allowed to keep their own tips and after it was approved, within a week, you wouldn't believe the differrence in the dealers and the poker room. It was a vast improvement.

I can only assume from your OP that you have rarely if ever played in cardrooms where the dealers keep their own tips.

If you are ever in Southern Indian, go play at Caesar's IN where they keep their own tips and then travel down river to Evansville, IN and play at Casino Aztar where the dealers do not keep their own tips. If you have the opportunity to experience the difference, you will never make another post like your OP.

Please don't think I am busting your chops, but you are wrong and it ain't even close.

[Rootabager]

I might just not be very observant but I really couldnt tell when Caesars IN switched over. I dont go a ton but around once a week.

I do like the idea that I can tip more to people that I like, so I am all for them keeping their tips. But the dif. was not that noticable to me.

[steamboatin]

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I might just not be very observant but I really couldnt tell when Caesars IN switched over.

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LOL, post of the year but it is early.

[jjshabado]

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I respectfully disagree.

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That's cool. This post wasn't about me defending my opinion, as me stating what I thought but asking for confirmation/disagreement.

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When I first began playing, the dealers pooled their tips at my local B&M. I would travel to Las Vegas or Tunica and be amazed at the difference in dealer speed and competence.


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I don't think you can use Las Vegas as a direct comparison though. There are probably tons of factors that differentiate your local casino from Las Vegas casinos. I don't know enough about Tunica (or your local casino for that matter) to know what other differences there might be

[ QUOTE ]

I wrote to IGC in support of poker dealers being allowed to keep their own tips and after it was approved, within a week, you wouldn't believe the differrence in the dealers and the poker room. It was a vast improvement.

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I'd be more interested in long term results though. I would definitely expect a large improvement with a switch from pooled-to-non-pooled based on everybody feeling like now they could earn their own tips. But does it last? If after a month or two dealers are finding that they're making very little extra money for lots of extra effort, do they revert back to their previous amount of effort?

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I can only assume from your OP that you have rarely if ever played in cardrooms where the dealers keep their own tips.


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I actually have played in AC the most, so dealers keep their own tips. I've also played in Brantford where I remember the dealers being pretty competent even though they shared tips (I believe). They were slower but there were no automatic shufflers so I suspect that was the speed difference. I've also played at Foxwoods over one weekend and they were definitely worse than any place else I've played. I just want to know if its actually mostly because they pool tips.

[ QUOTE ]

If you are ever in Southern Indian, go play at Caesar's IN where they keep their own tips and then travel down river to Evansville, IN and play at Casino Aztar where the dealers do not keep their own tips. If you have the opportunity to experience the difference, you will never make another post like your OP.

Please don't think I am busting your chops, but you are wrong and it ain't even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, but I don't find your personal experiences convincing. I'm not saying they are not NOT convincing just that I'm looking for more than personal experiences beliefs. As it is one other poster has said they didn't see a big difference, so I'll wait for more input before I'm completely convinced.

[WYDGD]

I agree with SteamBoatin, the quality of dealers who get to keep their own tips is night and day. Tunica is a good example, as like foxwoods, there is a couple of casinos in the middle of nowhere, granted farther in the middle of nowhere than CT. The worst dealer I saw in my 10 visits to Tunica rates with the best the woods has to offer.

The difference is that they have incentive to work harder and be a better dealer. With the huge dealer base at Foxwoods, a couple of missed tokes due to a lousy dealer has no direct effect on his paycheck.....

[afish]

The quality of dealers in AC went up markedly when they stopped pooling tips. When they stopped pooling, all the dealers sped up, and the bad dealers had to leave b/c they weren't making enough.

[lossage]

[ QUOTE ]
So I don't see that chip pooling is this huge factor in [the vast majority of the] crappy dealers at Foxwoods. I would suspect that its caused more by the fact that there are fewer good dealers that live in Conneticut, and there's a lack of competition from other casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a post in a previous thread, I promised to start trying to track hand counts and such when I play B&M (starting this weekend) and compare the results to when that same casino goes to a non-shared toke system for poker dealers.

Like the OP, I suspect that geographic differences play a role (e.g., dealer talent pool, competition). Unlike the OP, I think that, ceteris paribus, dealers keeping their own tokes will improve speed and accuracy. My hand records will provide a decent test of the second hypothesis (only).

What I'm going to do is the only reasonably scientific way to test the second hypothesis. Comparing a casino in the Midwest (or Connecticut) to one in Vegas would prove nothing.

[tomek322]

These are some lengthy posts. But to the OP, have you played somewhere other than Foxwoods? I played at Foxwoods for 6 months straight, my first B&M experience and didn't know any better. The first time I went to A/C I was blown away. Dealers for the most part spoke english, were friendly, kept the action moving and seemed to actually care about their tips.

Nothing like paying $5 for half an hour and playing 12 hands.

[AKQJ10]

tomek, OP said he's played in AC and agrees it's tons better. He just posits it's because more dealing talent is in a gambling center, which seems plausible too though I agree with the majority here.

One possibly non-obvious point: Not only does the incentive work to help people deal "better", be that banter with the customers (low stakes) or not banter with the customers or know the rules. Some people, like me, will reward those "better" dealers; others just toss chips around as a form of conspicous consumption and couldn't tell a good dealer from a bad one.

The real difference in incentive is, a good dealer gets out more hands per down. More hands => more pots won => more tips.

Maybe that is obvious, come to think of it, but for me it was a revelation.

Honestly in the case of Vegas OP's point has some merit, because an aspiring dealer would likely move to Vegas. But CT has some good dealers too who happen to be in school or have family there or whatever.