200PS: When one hand beats you

TimberBee · #1 09-27-2007, 10:46 AM

Villain is a semi-regular, okay player. We have little history, but we are on several different tables together.

I didn't be the flop, because I figuered he usually bets to steal on the flop when checked to, and as only limper. Of course I should have b/3bet, since my hand is somewhat diguised as well.

Turn is pretty standard, my problem is river. How much do I bet? Do I bet/call? Do I check/call? What's the best line? The only hand that beats me is 45xx.

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($329.35)
MP ($45.50)
Button ($196.35)
SB ($89.30)
Hero ($364.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($6) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks.

Turn: ($6) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $5.7, UTG raises to $22.8, SB folds, Hero raises to $74.1, UTG calls $51.30.

River: ($154.20) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero ????

sc000t · #2 09-27-2007, 11:00 AM

Value bet. Also, why are you checking the flop?

TimberBee · #3 09-27-2007, 11:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Value bet. Also, why are you checking the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the worst response I have ever seen in the history of 2+2. Please read through the OP, k thx bye

FireStorm · #4 09-27-2007, 11:04 AM

1) I know you don't want to hear this, but bet the flop, this check is abhorrently horrendous. Why would you want to give a free card on this board? Betting flop here makes other streets much easier to play.

2) As played, bet the river, call a shove. If he has 45xx, so be it. I can't really imagine any hands he can have that check the flop, and repot the turn, with 45xx in them. 2254? Nothing else would make sense unless this is the line he takes with hands like AA54 with diamonds.

NooBster · #5 09-27-2007, 11:07 AM

The problem with betting the river, of course, is it gives villian the opportunity to shove and I don't think we really want to have to call an AI. I feel like your ahead here 8/10 times, but I can't see him calling a 1/2 psb with anything we beat. Lately, it seems my opponents have been re-raising my turn bets w/ combo str and flush draws and little else. They've been pulling this move when it gets checked around on the flop, like this particular hand. I think a c/c is optimal as it appears he's willing to bet the river.

TimberBee · #6 09-27-2007, 11:16 AM

All, I know I know I know, I should have bet the flop, as I say in OP, the flopcheck is really bad, and of course I know that. I almost didn't want to post this hand, because I am embarassed over the flopcheck.

Noobster: I think he can call a 1/2 pot bet on the river with a lower set, but if he had 8's or 3's, it's strange he didn't bet the flop. So I kind of agree with you. But I want to hear some more responses as well...

sc000t · #7 09-27-2007, 11:21 AM

Ok, let me rephrase.

I don't like the flop check. You'd need a ton of hands and a sick read imo to KNOW that the last player to act is going to bet this flop in a LIMPED pot. If you do have that sort of read, then cudos, it didn't work.

I think you need to value bet here. I'd bet about $100-110 here. Having the 4 in hand helps your cause.

If you take the c/c line, will you call a full psb? I'd think anyone checking here is calling most if not all bets.

I also think you should valuebet, because given the turn action, I'm not sure how many bluffs you catch, even if he missed a bunch of draws and has no showdown value, I think you get rivers with worse showdown hands AND air checking behind.

I'd just lead out for $100 and if he shoves probably fold. You'll never get bluffed here in this spot and hands you beat that have showdown value, wouldn't turn them into bluffs. It would be a little over $150 if he shoved and if hes a regular, hes not shoving with anything other than 45xx imo.

iggymcfly · #8 09-27-2007, 11:37 AM

There's really only two hands that make sense here: 22xx and 456 with diamonds. If you check, you don't have to worry about a lower set betting, so I think you can check/fold pretty comfortably, and if you bet, 222 will almost certainly call one more bet.

The problem is that I think the wrap is much more likely than the lower set here. All in all, I think the best play is to check/fold here. The check behind flop/raise turn actually defines villain's hand really well here to the point that we're almost sure that if villain's drawing, he has 45 in his hand since his draw had to improve on the turn for him to wait for that street to raise. Thus, there's no reasonable hand villain can bluff with, and villain will very rarely value-bet worse than what we have.

Maybe if he bets 1/3 pot and you get suspicious he might have 88 or something, you can look him up, but I think most of the time, check/folding is the correct play here. (Note: This in no way means, you're giving up on the hand. Villain will check behind fairly often. It's just that when he bets, you're beat.)

Oh, BTW, if you do decide to lead, a smidge under half-pot is the right amount. You're not really repping a bluff at all given your line, you're just looking for a stubborn call from something like 222 that knows they're beat and wants to see your hand to make sure.

FireStorm · #9 09-27-2007, 11:59 AM

Check/fold? You can't be serious? How many hands can Villain actually play this way that have 45xx in them? Put it this way, if you're Villain here, do you put Hero on JJxx or better, considering the flop check? You wouldn't call a river bet with other sets? Seems silly to me.

Aisthesis · #10 09-27-2007, 03:42 PM

I really wish you had bet that flop, but this may have paid off.

I think you can either check-call the river or (I think I prefer this line) make a value-bet of about $60. If you get raised, I think you have to fold after betting. But I also think there are some bad hands that will still call here. I really don't see how anyone can raise a bet without the straight, since you're repping it.

Anyhow, I can see 4567 with diamonds giving you that action as well as little sets. I can't help but believe A456 with diamonds bets the flop. Also, with both wraps 5-handed, the lack of UTG raise seems to me unusual--which speaks for a small set or something.