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  #101  
Old 11-25-2007, 12:43 AM
furyshade furyshade is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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does a 3.8 from harvard indicate better potential than a 3.95 from Minnesota? of course. did it require more effort? no, not necessarily.

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Yes. It opens more doors.

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the idea of requiring more effort is totally irrelevent, of course you could have someone who went to harvard and got all A's except for the occasional B without studying and a kid who was less capable and worked his ass off to get straight A's at minnesota. effort doesn't mean anything because different people have different levels of required effort to do the same work
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  #102  
Old 11-25-2007, 01:46 AM
pzhon pzhon is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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The content of many courses in the U.S., especially science and math courses, is pretty uniform. Often the very same texts are used. You can't take calculus at the University of Louisville and only be taught half as much as someone taking the equivalent course at an Ivy League school.


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In my experience teaching at elite schools and discussing teaching with mathematicians, scientists, and engineers elsewhere, this is dead wrong.

You can find many exceptions, but in general, mediocre schools do not have anywhere close to the same depth of curriculum as schools like Harvard, Princeton, MIT, etc.

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These are obviously not equivalent classes then, and I would not expect them to be evaluated for content as equivalent.

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If you are too picky, you can say just about any class at an elite school is not precisely equivalent to a class elsewhere.

It is generally accepted in mathematics that the core classes for a mathematics major are introductions to abstract algebra, analysis, and geometry/topology. These classes have few prerequisites, and should be comparable between schools. In the examples I have compared, the depth at elite schools is much greater than at mediocre schools. For example, a non-elite school's abstract algebra class may use Gallian's book for a year, and cover material through the Sylow theorems, rings and ideals, and finite fields. An elite school may use the more advanced texts by Artin, Dummit and Foote, or Herstein. Classes at MIT and Harvard using Artin's book covered everything in Gallian, plus more including the basics of representation theory, in the first semester. If you want to do some comparisons on your own, this might help: MIT Open Courseware.

Occasionally, there are extremely good or tough classes at mediocre schools, but they are the exception. Students are expected to have less preparation and to take more time to learn the material. In general, students are expected not to be able to do as much homework. This means much less material is included in courses of the same name and role.

If you want to take it easy, go to Harvard. If you want a challenge, try to learn the same material at Iowa State University, where you have to learn most of it yourself at the library or from the internet.
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  #103  
Old 11-25-2007, 02:25 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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The content of many courses in the U.S., especially science and math courses, is pretty uniform. Often the very same texts are used. You can't take calculus at the University of Louisville and only be taught half as much as someone taking the equivalent course at an Ivy League school.


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In my experience teaching at elite schools and discussing teaching with mathematicians, scientists, and engineers elsewhere, this is dead wrong.

You can find many exceptions, but in general, mediocre schools do not have anywhere close to the same depth of curriculum as schools like Harvard, Princeton, MIT, etc. Almost all (over 95%) of the students taking freshman mathematics (Math 1) at Caltech have passed AP BC calculus or the equivalent in high school. The content of the course is not set by keeping pace with the other calculus classes in schools with students with weaker backgrounds.

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These are obviously not equivalent classes then, and I would not expect them to be evaluated for content as equivalent.

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This seems to contradict your claim that the courses are equivalent. A degree course is the sum of the classes and if the classes aren't equivalent then nor are the courses.

Unless you think that at the 'lessor' universities there are some more difficult courses to redress the balance - this seems highly unlikely.

chez
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  #104  
Old 11-25-2007, 02:39 AM
furyshade furyshade is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

i think by equivilent he is merely saying a linear algebra course at school A and a linear algebra course at school B intended for the same relative students, for example class is intended from junior math majors with xyz pre-requisite
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  #105  
Old 11-25-2007, 02:53 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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i think by equivilent he is merely saying a linear algebra course at school A and a linear algebra course at school B intended for the same relative students, for example class is intended from junior math majors with xyz pre-requisite

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I'm not sure what he is saying here, if an example is offered where the course at A is harder than the course at B then he will simply say he wouldn't count them as equivalent.

The issue is whether or not some courses are made up of harder classes than others and hence are not equivalent. Certainly true in the UK, I'm struggling to accept the possibility it's not true in the USA. BTW it seems like a very bad thing if the courses are equivalent.

chez
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  #106  
Old 11-25-2007, 02:58 AM
Philo Philo is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

I don't deny that there are more challenging courses at places like MIT and CalTech than at a place like Iowa State. The Harvard math course that blah blah referred to, Math 55a, is described as "the most difficult undergraduate math class in the country." I have no doubt that similar classes are probably not available at Iowa State.

Do I think that students at Harvard get a better undergraduate education than at Iowa State? Yes. Do I think that the average math major at Harvard will come out knowing more than the average math major at Iowa State? Yes. Perhaps there are very few math courses offered at Harvard and Iowa State that are comparable in content. Do I think that the average undergraduate at Harvard is more intelligent than the average undergraduate at Iowa State? Yes.

My claim is about grading practices, and it is this: it is a misconception to think that an A- at Harvard in a course that is equivalent in content to a course at Iowa State means necessarily that the A- from Iowa State in the same course was easier.
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  #107  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:10 AM
furyshade furyshade is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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I don't deny that there are more challenging courses at places like MIT and CalTech than at a place like Iowa State. The Harvard math course that blah blah referred to, Math 55a, is described as "the most difficult undergraduate math class in the country." I have no doubt that similar classes are probably not available at Iowa State.

Do I think that students at Harvard get a better undergraduate education than at Iowa State? Yes. Do I think that the average math major at Harvard will come out knowing more than the average math major at Iowa State? Yes. Perhaps there are very few math courses offered at Harvard and Iowa State that are comparable in content. Do I think that the average undergraduate at Harvard is more intelligent than the average undergraduate at Iowa State? Yes.

My claim is about grading practices, and it is this: it is a misconception to think that an A- at Harvard in a course that is equivalent in content to a course at Iowa State means necessarily that the A- from Iowa State in the same course was easier.

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but perhaps that is the idea, that if the A at harvard were proportionally diffcult to get as the A at Iowa State then no one would get them. obviously this is not the only reason for inflation, there is the aspect that those schools want to look better to the public.
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  #108  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:20 AM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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I don't deny that there are more challenging courses at places like MIT and CalTech than at a place like Iowa State. The Harvard math course that blah blah referred to, Math 55a, is described as "the most difficult undergraduate math class in the country." I have no doubt that similar classes are probably not available at Iowa State.

Do I think that students at Harvard get a better undergraduate education than at Iowa State? Yes. Do I think that the average math major at Harvard will come out knowing more than the average math major at Iowa State? Yes. Perhaps there are very few math courses offered at Harvard and Iowa State that are comparable in content. Do I think that the average undergraduate at Harvard is more intelligent than the average undergraduate at Iowa State? Yes.

My claim is about grading practices, and it is this: it is a misconception to think that an A- at Harvard in a course that is equivalent in content to a course at Iowa State means necessarily that the A- from Iowa State in the same course was easier.

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Don't mean to pile on but I would think even your last statement is wrong. Just because they use the same book and cover the same material dosn't mean the underlying concepts are not delved into deeper at Harvard. So the same grade at Harvard, probably denotes a better understanding of the subject
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  #109  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:24 AM
Philo Philo is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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I don't deny that there are more challenging courses at places like MIT and CalTech than at a place like Iowa State. The Harvard math course that blah blah referred to, Math 55a, is described as "the most difficult undergraduate math class in the country." I have no doubt that similar classes are probably not available at Iowa State.

Do I think that students at Harvard get a better undergraduate education than at Iowa State? Yes. Do I think that the average math major at Harvard will come out knowing more than the average math major at Iowa State? Yes. Perhaps there are very few math courses offered at Harvard and Iowa State that are comparable in content. Do I think that the average undergraduate at Harvard is more intelligent than the average undergraduate at Iowa State? Yes.

My claim is about grading practices, and it is this: it is a misconception to think that an A- at Harvard in a course that is equivalent in content to a course at Iowa State means necessarily that the A- from Iowa State in the same course was easier.

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but perhaps that is the idea, that if the A at harvard were proportionally diffcult to get as the A at Iowa State then no one would get them. obviously this is not the only reason for inflation, there is the aspect that those schools want to look better to the public.

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Yes, I can understand some of the rationale for grade inflation, and I think it is the exception rather than the rule when the student from a public university is unfairly disadvantaged in comparing her grades to the grades of her Ivy League counterparts, but it does happen.

If grades were strictly a reflection of relative merit and academic performance, 1966 graduates of Harvard would be much poorer students than 1996 graduates of Harvard. I doubt that that's true.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...08/edtwof2.htm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A96E958260

"Clifford Adelman, a senior research analyst with the United States Education Department who has studied 21,000 college transcripts from 3,000 colleges, said: ''Elite schools always give higher grades. The faculty make the assumption that the kids are smarter."
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  #110  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:52 AM
Philo Philo is offline
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Default Re: relationship between SAT scores and intelligence?

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Don't mean to pile on but I would think even your last statement is wrong. Just because they use the same book and cover the same material dosn't mean the underlying concepts are not delved into deeper at Harvard. So the same grade at Harvard, probably denotes a better understanding of the subject

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Well, again, in my experience I would not presume to make that assumption:

"For most people, if you are getting A's, it means you are doing good work," said Tucker Culbertson, 20, a Princeton junior majoring in English. "If you go to class and participate and write a semi-intelligible paper you get an A."

"'A B is what most anybody who finishes a course gets,' said Alexander Nehamas, a philosophy professor and chairman of the Council of the Humanities, an interdisciplinary program."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...51C0A96E958260
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