.5/1 A8 BB defense

[neurotiq]

I'd probably just fold on the flop. Definitely not raising the turn...

[Reaction]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably just fold on the flop. Definitely not raising the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this flop would be on the bad/pretty bad side. With the read provided, the flop bet narrows down villains wide range almost zero. Getting 5:1 you are more than priced in to call.

[Harv72b]

Chiming in late, but I totally dig postflop vs. this opponent. I'd definitely have 3bet preflop on a 4-handed table.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you c/c the flop how do you expect villain to play the turn (what hands will he check, which ones will he bet?).

[/ QUOTE ]I wanted information OOP, which is why I raised post-flop. Didn't really want to 3bet with this weak of a hand preflop either OOP. I think he folds nothing here which is most of his range IMO, peels some Ace high or King high hands. With the 3bet he for sure has at least middle pair big kicker, or most likely top pair and up. I think I'm getting the right price so I call. Turn I c/r for value and fold to 3bet. Think I have best hand as played since he did just call there. Possible trap or I could be betting into a better Ace if he gets frisky with AJ+ on the flop. River I think I'm beat facing raise but meh can't fold now IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, blech. Just saw this post.

You're not check/raising the flop for information, period. The flop check/raise should be primarily for value, because you will very often have the best hand, and partially as a bluff, because against some opponents & with the right image yourself, you can get them to fold slightly better hands at some point in the action. In fact, if you didn't 3bet preflop it should have been with the express intention of check/raising any flop that wasn't horribly ugly for your hand (or absolutely beautiful for it, when you wouldn't want him folding). This is blind defense 101 stuff.

Given the circumstances & getting more than 12:1 to call the river raise, folding shouldn't even enter your mind.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop. As played this is a must c/c. There is no other way you can play it and if someone tells you any differently you should blacklist them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blacklist me. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Seriously, though...why on Earth would you check/call that flop after flat calling his PFR? We're talking about a Button raise by a player we know to be an aggressive stealer, and in a 4-handed game no less. We have the best hand after that flop very, very often, and our check/raise will be called (or even 3bet) by worse hands almost as often.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
You're not check/raising the flop for information, period. The flop check/raise should be primarily for value, because you will very often have the best hand, and partially as a bluff, because against some opponents & with the right image yourself, you can get them to fold slightly better hands at some point in the action.

[/ QUOTE ]That's what I mean by I think he folds a lot because the majority of his range is nothing. I'm certainly betting any turn facing a call since I believe this raise will be peeled fairly wide (edit: and expect King, Queen high type hands to fold to turn bet almost always so I gain that extra small bet), especially against this type of player. Not folding out a better hand IMO. I expect to be called down by an unimproved AK a ton (4 handed). It's a marginal value/info raise, same thing to me in this spot.

This is one of the better flops for my hand versus his range, I figure. And I don't always want my c/r on flop to be made hands. 3betting PF is certainly something I'll also do in this spot but not always. They are in position, if they know I always 3bet Axs+, A7+, K9+, 55+, etc, stuff like that, pretty easy cap with a similar, albiet slightly tighter, range. No reason to always 3bet or always call. Think you'd agree with this.

The flop c/r is standard on this board against a lag IMO. Anything that flops me a backdoor straight draw, a pair, or a paired board. Those type of flops.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop. As played this is a must c/c. There is no other way you can play it and if someone tells you any differently you should blacklist them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blacklist me. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Seriously, though...why on Earth would you check/call that flop after flat calling his PFR? We're talking about a Button raise by a player we know to be an aggressive stealer, and in a 4-handed game no less. We have the best hand after that flop very, very often, and our check/raise will be called (or even 3bet) by worse hands almost as often.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider yourself blacklisted [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Harv.

You cant c/r this flop.

Consider the action versus various types of hands.

- worse hands. No pair no draw. These will either fold right now or call the c/r and fold turn. Sometimes they will 3-bet but thats a rare occasion. Seems to me that you FR live guys expect this to be 3-bet quite a lot with worse hands. That rarely happens to me when I play SH online.

Anyways. You dont want him to fold these hands. Like Kx no pair. Its huge for you to have him 2 barrel or 3 barrel this hand.

Just quoting "I figure to have the best hand a lot" as a reason to raise is dumb if you dont consider a) which worse hands are calling or b) which better hands are folding and c) how does raising affect the betting on later streets.


- Good draws. He will either call or 3-bet these draws.

Now its no problem that he 3-bets if you know when to see a SD and when not to so that would be a good thing. Given that hero knows when to fold.

But if he just calls and ends up folding the river UI you didnt gain anything whenever he would have 3 barreled river UI had you just c/c the flop . Against people who plays their draws straightforwardly and will 3 barrel them UI you can not quote "he has a draw I raise to charge" as a reason to raise. Thats also dumb. (Harv I am not saying you did this, just talking generally here)

- Pairs or better. Well he is either gonna call these or 3-bet. Whenever he does this and doesnt fold a better hand at some point, c/r'ing is clearly suboptimal. Its my experience that Hero will be looked up loose here so dont expect to fold a better hand.



Seriously. Against players who will not fold easily and who will 3-bet with worse hands it is such a huge mistake to bloat pots with marginal hands. Its bad HU poker and its not up for debate.

Against FR nits there might be some value in a c/r as you can sometimes fold a pair or another/better ace as these guys fold too much. But dont expect it to happen in an online SH game.


tl;dr I know.

[Mitke]

* grunch *
Preflop:
Call or 3-bet, both are ok. Too good a hand to fold if Villain's steal range is wide(?).
Flop:
Your kicker still beats middle pair, and Villain's stealing range is wide so you could have the best hand. I like c/r.

When we are 3-bet I don't like our hand anymore. Tempted to fold it as we probably don't have more than 3 outs. I peel it though vs this very laggy opponent.

I like turn c/r.

River I c/c - if he's as aggro he'll bluff or bet many hands for value here that we still beat.

EDIT: Hmm.. I still suck more shorthanded than in full ring...

[Sushiglutton]

I asked OP which hands he thought villain would continue betting on the turn. He didn't answer that and I noticed that you didn't adress this either.

I guess you feel that villain will bet almost his entire range on the turn? Otherwise I think this is an important factor. If willain checks a lot of his no-showdown-value-hands, on the turn then CR looks much, much better.

But guess this is more likely on say a K72 flop, than on this board.

[Oink]

Important point.

If villain cheks through the turn with his 6-10 outers, c/r'ing improves a helluva lot, but so does c/c flop donk - turn.

That said, you wont see people checking the turn a lot on this drawy board.