Another river bluff raise.

[Tryptamean]

My head is starting to hurt thinking about the flop play on this hand. I do not understand how a raise is terrible. Seems like your chances of folding out a better hand with a turn bet would at least be non-zero. Plus you have a nice draw and you get value the times he is also on a draw and (hopefully) the option of a cheap showdown.

Having said that, I think a call is a little better for the reasons Oink stated.

Now, why did you bet the turn? Is this for value because I don't see him ever c/f'ing a better hand? I think turn check is the way to go and call the river if you think he'll bluff often enough.

[bobhalford]

This play seems fine against a taggish player that intends on bet/folding J9. Against a bad player, I don't think this play works often enough. These players never fold after committing a bet to the pot. I think this is especially true on the river.

The one thing you have going for you is that your river raise says, "no really, I have an ace." If the turn action wasn't enough to convince him, maybe a river raise will clue him into the fact that his pair isn't any good. He may very well fold, but I think it's very borderline. I think the fact that he's a bad player and never folds carries more weight than how convincing you are in representing an ace.

[Apanage]

I´m okay with the river raise. I believe that many better hands will fold on the river. a T,9 or a low PP will often fold (and if he doesn´t fold he is making a mistake in the long run).Even halfbad players understands that you "must" have an A or a flush when you raise river.
It is hard to get into non-logical players minds. But if we have to put him on a hand worth donking I would go with that he has a pair or a 4.
When he check/calls turn it feels like he doesn´t want his pair to get raised. If he was on a draw I think another bet from him had been more likely
So if we don´t like to raise the flop I don´t think we should bet turn either. The reason for not raising the flop was that you thought there was a risk that you were behind and that you wanted him to continue bluffing if you were ahead.
I think it is a little bit inconsistent to bet turn charging his worse hands if you don´t like raising flop. Especially since his check IMO is more indicative of a player heading for showdown than one being on a draw.
He is not going to fold anything you already beat since a bet from you when he checked pretty much tells him nothing about your hand.

[milesdyson]

trypt: ya flop raise is not close to terrible. how can anything be terrible when you probably have low 40s equity and position?

bob: but tags know betting the river w/ J9 here is pretty ridiculous.

[toss]

I reserve this play for when I have a strong read.

[bobhalford]

[ QUOTE ]

bob: but tags know betting the river w/ J9 here is pretty ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I was gonna say that a tag wouldn't play J9 or too many other hands like this, but I think my point was that if it was a tag making a what looks like a bet/fold (perhaps wa/wb) play on the river, then raising should work.

A bad player could bet J9 on the river, but I think this player is going to call a raise if he's going to bet.

[vmacosta]

[ QUOTE ]
Also. Raising the flop because you want him to fold air is bad as well. With a pot this small its much better to let him keep bluffing his 6 outer.

raising here will in general never fold a better hand so when he folds it was with a hand where the value of him bluffing again on the turn is better.

I am sorry, but raising the flop is terrible!

[/ QUOTE ]

oink,
its amusing that you are capable of raising the river as a sophisticated "elindauer-bluff" but not raising the flop as a semibluff. Your equity + position + implied odds are plenty to justify a raise