Panel hand #2 - showdown

[FUJItheFISH]

You actually call the raise. MP1 calls and MP3 chooses to fold.

Hero tables the nut flush, MP1 has three tens with ATo, and button has Q4s for the Queen high flush.

Hero wins 25.25 big bets.

<font color="blue">Befolder
Well I'm happy to say that my read on the button was correct. All this work deserves some of those actual BBs to be shiped to my Absolute account.

This was a tough hand to analyze. However, looking back at the pot odds, my equity in the hand and knowledge of our opponents, the decision were pretty clear cut, but I could be told otherwise by whatever reaction the forum has to our answers.

As far as my out discounting, I wouldn't mind someone commenting on if I was too conservative, or not enough. Total estimation on my part.

Thanks for selecting me to do this Fuji. Hopefully it's helpful to others, and if not, hopefully the criticism of my analysis is helpful to me.
</font>

<font color="red">Ampelmann
I'm not quite sure what to write as an overall review, since I think hero played this hand perfectly. But I'll try.

In my opinion hero played this hand perfectly. He correctly raised his strong multiway hand prefop because of a big equity edge against potentially weak hands from loose players. On the flop he correctly bet his strong draw, but since the board was paired he could not raise this to infinity. After the raise the overcards are likely no outs at all, and the value of the flush draw was lowered, so he only called to keep as many players in as possible.

Since the draw didn't come in on the turn and it was impossible to take the pot with a semi-bluff here check/called and called the raise. Folding is absolutely no option here, and raising would be spew.

The draw came in on the river, but this is not the time for a c/r. Hero can't really know who will bet (or if anyone will bet at all, they may fear the scare card), and a boat will 3-bet. So he bets out, hoping to get crying calls from trips and weaker hands. After button woke up, raising would have been bad: If hero has the best hand he may only get one additional bet (button's), and if he loses he has to pay one more. So he calls, going for overcalls.

The showdown is great, hero wins a huge pot and has the additional satisfaction of having played good poker. </font>

<font color="purple">DrModern
Well, though the button's hand was ridiculously obvious, I have to say I'm a little surprised by MP3's river fold getting crazy odds closing the action. I think I might make a note about his flop play. Something along the lines of "bluff raise against many on paired flop." I am not terribly surprised by MP1's holding--just one of those "TRIPS!!1 zomg slowroll it!!" guys.

Overall I think this hand was fairly straightforward, though I feel like we missed opportunities for extracting maximum value on the river. I am confident that, given the hand reading we'd done throughout the hand, there's no way this river would have gotten checked through, or that enough players would have folded that going for a check-raise would have been a bad idea. I think this would have given us the best chance of winning the max here. Though, in retrospect, the donk bet was not so bad, but had any player folded to it, or had they responded passively, we could easily have gotten a lot a lot less out of it.

I haven't got much else to say by way of a synopsis of the way the hand was played. I enjoyed doing this. Thanks to Fuji for selecting me as a panelist.

Shout outs to the rest of the Farmland Mob!

For reals!

holla!!!

(p.s. I hope shadow comes back soon) </font>

<font color="green">Bilgefisher
My overall thought, this was an excellent hand post. Many things to think of. My check raise on the turn did differ from the way the hand was played. I still like the check raise to get mp1 and mp2 off their hands. I am looking forward to the feedback. Overall I would say I was caught off guard 2 times in this hand. I did not expect the check raise from MP1 on the turn nor the button on the river. I got caught concentrating on the nice and shiny (oooh shiny...good thing it didn't jingle too) raise by mp3 and cold call by the button on the flop.

The slowdown on the turn and raise on the river by the button also caught me off guard. (It probably shouldn't have considering his flop cold call).

Three key things in this hand imo. The paired board, large pot and multiway hand.

The paired board had me cautious the whole hand. The pot was way to large to let go from the begginning. Enough chips to keep me donating the whole hand. The large field also had me searching for ways to minimize the field. Although not many great ways presented themselves. I think if a 6 of hearts would have been the nastiest card to come on the river. Good hand Fuji. (**Fuji’s note: Thank Aaron W for the hand.) </font>

Edit credit: DrModern

Fuji:
I think on paper this hand may seem simple, boring, and redundant but I really challenge some of you to actually play this level-headed when multitabling. I can't count the number of times where I would just go into raising wars in hands like these.

[DrModern]

Also, why is Befolder repeating what I said earlier in his final assessment of the hand. Major problems here, FUJI.

[Bilgefisher]

I got alot of feedback on the turn raise (which is what I wanted). Not to say I played it correctly or intended to misplay it, I simply made a mistake there. I think I was over evaluating my overcards by wanting to c/r. Also, In my play I generally look at 3 main things; pot size, number of players and my hand. When the pot got large, I was looking for ways to win it.

Many of you stated that this was a simple hand. I disagree, I think several things changed the dynamics of the hand. Still look forward to more feedback.

edit: I forgot to add the links
Preflop
Flop
Turn
Turn part 2
Turn Part 3
River
River Part 2

[Bilgefisher]

I'm surpised there has been so little feedback on this panel hand. I thought it was a pretty decent hand to evaluate.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Fuji:
I think on paper this hand may seem simple, boring, and redundant but I really challenge some of you to actually play this level-headed when multitabling. I can't count the number of times where I would just go into raising wars in hands like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is a fairly straight-forward hand to play. However, straight-forward for whom?
- Preflop raise with AJs: Today, I would raise AJs from any position in an unraised pot. During my first couple years of playing poker, I would have checked it.
- Flop bet with two overcards and a flush draw against the paired board: Standard bet if I checked preflop or if I raised preflop. But betting this has *NOTHING* to do with raising preflop. The preflop pot-building raise is about building pots to win more money when you flop well. Anyone who even hinted at this decision being related to being the preflop aggressor doesn't understand big pot poker. If the flop came TT7 all black cards, do you bet it? Why or why not?
- Calling the flop raise: I think this was under-discussed. I think many players would have 3-bet this on instinct and were afraid to speak up because 3 of the panelists voted to just call.
- Turn play: This should be standard for everyone. Holding a flush draw on the turn is one of the easiest situations to play.
- River play: I screwed up. Check-raising is superior to donking. Bet/3-betting is superior to donk-calling. I don't think it's particularly close, either.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
- Flop bet with two overcards and a flush draw against the paired board: Standard bet if I checked preflop or if I raised preflop. But betting this has *NOTHING* to do with raising preflop. The preflop pot-building raise is about building pots to win more money when you flop well. Anyone who even hinted at this decision being related to being the preflop aggressor doesn't understand big pot poker.

[/ QUOTE ]
disagree. because you made the pot so huge and they expect a bet, you will certainly get value out of this flop bet. can this factor be the difference between checking had you checked preflop and betting because you raised preflop? imo it probably can be, although not in this hand specifically.

also in the future, PLEASE add action before the decision points. this hand was very annoying. there were like 3 threads per street and you had to go back to 9 threads to see wtf had happened prior to the river. these would be 10x better with the action shown, and they would get much more discussion. as it were, i'm pretty sure everyone was just turned away by this format.

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fuji:
I think on paper this hand may seem simple, boring, and redundant but I really challenge some of you to actually play this level-headed when multitabling. I can't count the number of times where I would just go into raising wars in hands like these.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this is a fairly straight-forward hand to play. However, straight-forward for whom?
- Preflop raise with AJs: Today, I would raise AJs from any position in an unraised pot. During my first couple years of playing poker, I would have checked it.
- Flop bet with two overcards and a flush draw against the paired board: Standard bet if I checked preflop or if I raised preflop. But betting this has *NOTHING* to do with raising preflop. The preflop pot-building raise is about building pots to win more money when you flop well. Anyone who even hinted at this decision being related to being the preflop aggressor doesn't understand big pot poker. If the flop came TT7 all black cards, do you bet it? Why or why not?
- Calling the flop raise: I think this was under-discussed. I think many players would have 3-bet this on instinct and were afraid to speak up because 3 of the panelists voted to just call.
- Turn play: This should be standard for everyone. Holding a flush draw on the turn is one of the easiest situations to play.
- River play: I screwed up. Check-raising is superior to donking. Bet/3-betting is superior to donk-calling. I don't think it's particularly close, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Several things:

- Good point about the preflop play. I think whether or not this hand is straightforward depends on where you are in your poker career.

- I wasn't trying to imply that because you raised preflop, that means you should bet here. I suggested that the bet was more likely than usual to get called because it would be viewed as a c-bet. This is like an added bonus, not the reason to bet. On an all black TT7 flop I definitely would not have bet.

- The whole hand has been underdiscussed so far. Save the micros.

- BRAG: I'm the only panelist who said check-raise the turn and then 3-bet the button's raise. Holla.

[milesdyson]

"BRAG: I'm the only panelist who said check-raise the turn and then 3-bet the button's raise. Holla. "

if you were serious about this, i have a few questions for you:

1. who dresses you?
2. who combs your hair?
3. can you physically close your mouth?

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]
"BRAG: I'm the only panelist who said check-raise the turn and then 3-bet the button's raise. Holla. "

if you were serious about this, i have a few questions for you:

1. who dresses you?
2. who combs your hair?
3. can you physically close your mouth?

[/ QUOTE ]

God, no one gets my sarcasm and now I've made miles angry.

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]


1. who dresses you? My personal fashion consultant.
2. who combs your hair? My hairstylist, who is from LA ZOMGZ!!!1.
3. can you physically close your mouth? They tell me not to as it makes me look better to have it slightly open.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to ask for a custom title "This Is Sarcasm"