Party 10/20. Another Elindauer raise

Oink · #1 08-08-2007, 11:28 AM

This is a flop raise I never would have made before reading about this whole Elindauer stuff.

Reads: Button is party 10/20-30/60 reg. He is fairly Laggish running something like 37/25 with a wtsd of 42 5-6 handed. He is definetely capable of folding and seems like a good and tricky player overall. Prolly a winner since he plays a LOT of hands and havent gone busto yet.

SB is huge donkey. 65/20 stats and the reason the table is sweet. Loose passive postflop but capable of making stupid plays.

The plan is to fold out button and hopefully win the hand UI (or improved) against the fishy SB

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, Button raises, SB calls, hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6SB, 3 players)
SB checks, hero checks, Button bets, SB calls, hero raises, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6BB, 3 players)
SB checks, hero bets

yourface · #2 08-08-2007, 11:32 AM

I thought the elindauer raise was a river play, this is just a semibluff. I think it's ok though because in a protected pot you have a good chance of getting button to fold a better ace than you

Oink · #3 08-08-2007, 11:46 AM

I think he describes a spot in that articel where he raises a A high fd on the flop or turn to get the pot HU vs a fish.

But yeah, its just a semibluff albeit not one I have ever made before. Sorry if its completely standard and I just suck [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

secretprankster · #4 08-08-2007, 12:05 PM

I wouldn't say it's completely standard but this looks like an OK play in my book, albeit with a few problems. That's not a great turn card for you as it greatly diminishes your FE vs. their ranges. This is a bit of an issue because if it's still 3-ways on the river, what is your plan? There are a bunch of cards I think you can easily checkfold (kings, queens, jacks) but there are others where you still have the best hand quite a bit (but it likely goes check-check-check in those scenarios).

sharpie · #5 08-08-2007, 03:59 PM

I don't think button is folding before the turn much. I would rather check/call the flop and donk some turns. Do you think we have less fold equity this way? Having said that we sometimes have the best hand, that along with our drawing equity means it doesn't really cost us anything.

thepizzlefosho · #6 08-08-2007, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think button is folding before the turn much. I would rather check/call the flop and donk some turns. Do you think we have less fold equity this way? Having said that we sometimes have the best hand, that along with our drawing equity means it doesn't really cost us anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that I would rather c/c and donk a "safe" turn then run this c/r. I think we have greater fold equity against a TAG that way since they will read you as hitting a hand not wanting to let overcards check through on the turn and take a free card. As played the c/r on the flop builds a pot that gives the button better odds to peel the turn with overs, especially if he picks up any bd gutshots on the turn.

Oink · #7 08-08-2007, 04:44 PM

I dont think call flop donk turn has better FE against the button who is quite LAGgish BTW. The preflop stats I quoted are 5-6 handed.

Actually thinking more about this hand I dont think the flop play is very good because button is such a big (and good) LAG. A TAG will respect a flop raise a lot more.

I got lucky in this hand since button folded and I won the pot UI against a draw. I think the correct play is to peel the flop and check the turn. That way Hero will get a lot of free rivers with less than stellar equity.

strategery · #8 08-08-2007, 04:52 PM

Button's WTSD is 42% (that's high right?), he's getting 7-1 (probably 8-1 since SB will likely call) to your turn bet, and there's a "huge donk" in the pot as well so I don't think he's folding enough of the time for this line to be profitable. I agree that C/Cing the flop and leading the turn provides us with more fold equity and saves us bets when we're behind. If Button calls are we 3-barreling the river or C/Fing UI?

Flintoff · #9 08-08-2007, 05:24 PM

Hehe - played a similar hand today on there myself Oink. I suckout good.

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $232
CO: $225.50
Button: $288.80
SB: $309.75
Hero: $502.75

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.5BB, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7.5BB
Hero shows As 3c 
SB doesn't show 6s 6d

thepizzlefosho · #10 08-08-2007, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think call flop donk turn has better FE against the button who is quite LAGgish BTW. The preflop stats I quoted are 5-6 handed.

Actually thinking more about this hand I dont think the flop play is very good because button is such a big (and good) LAG. A TAG will respect a flop raise a lot more.

I got lucky in this hand since button folded and I won the pot UI against a draw. I think the correct play is to peel the flop and check the turn. That way Hero will get a lot of free rivers with less than stellar equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points about him being a LAG and thus the turn donk not as good, but that being said if he is a LAG I think the play is pretty bad. If he was a TAG I like the idea, but I think calling the flop and donking the turn is better, but against a LAG I think we should peel the flop and hope that he checks behind on the turn. interesting hand though.